*** Xina changes topic to "Egyptian Religion and Magick"
*** baphomet is on IRC
<Xina> ok now I want people to be able to ask questions as we go...is that permissable
<SpiderWlf> hiya barb =)
<Barbarian> Hi!  :)
<Xina> mm Barbarian
<Brmhilda> sure
<SpiderWlf> xina, sure its your call =)
<Xina> Spidey: thank you
<Pern_26> re mystowl
<Xina> mm myst owl
<mystowl> hidie ho nieghbors
<Xina> I will wait a couple more minutes before getting underway
<Brmhilda> i will be logging this evening please stay on topic everyone
<Margo_> yahoo.....I made it on the 1st try!
<sisbb> Greetings
* Taoiccan gets coffee, then
*SpiderWlf* do you want an introduction? or would you rather introduce yourself?
<Brmhilda> saves me on the editting
<sisbb> thank uBrm
<Pern_26> brb
<sisbb> thank u Drk
<DrkMother> didn't do anything sisbb... you're on a different channel than the one you were banned from
<sisbb> well thanks 
<mystowl> drkmother when are midterms done?
<DrkMother> mystowl: one week from tonight, about this time, as a matter of fact  :)
<Furry_Fox> mm efurone :)
<Pern_26> back
<Taoiccan> There are midterms for #pathweaving?  :-)
<mystowl> good luck be with ya drk
<mystowl> lol
<Xina> wow....midterms on #pathweaving...thats a new one on me
<DrkMother> thx, myst
<DrkMother> me too!
<Xina> ok
<Margo_> don't worry tao, you passed them already........
<mystowl> you better study 
<DrkMother> egads, didn't know we'd be tested on this stuff!
<Pern_26> Midterms....   NO!
<Taoiccan> Margo: LOL!   Thanks, teacher!
<<mystowl> drk look what we started
* SpiderWlf grins...Welcome to our discussion tonite on Egyptian Magick and Religion =)
<mystowl> uh oh
<SpiderWlf> Please stay on topic *grin*
<SpiderWlf> Xina will be leading the discussion tonite..
<Brmhilda> great
<Pern_26> ahhhhhhhh    split
<SpiderWlf> awwwww damm
<SpiderWlf> um, lets wait a minute or 2
<Xina> we will wait till people get a leg up again
<Barbarian> Netsplit city..
<SpiderWlf> they might get back here soon...
<Brmhilda> yep
<Xina> need to go to joplin
<mystowl> shit shit shit
<Taoiccan> split happens
<mystowl> lol
<Brmhilda> is everyone here on joplin?
<Xina> Tao: LOL!!
* SpiderWlf is
<Xina> I am
<Pern_26> shit happens frequently
<mystowl> ya
<Barbarian> Yes, Brmmie..
<Taoiccan> I am on joplin
<Barbarian> It was Lowell that split..
<SpiderWlf> actually, im going to take this time to relog
<Pern_26> i'm on Jop
<SpiderWlf> cos i only have an hour left..
<Brmhilda> xina what are you on?
* SpiderWlf will brb
<Xina> Im on Joplin brm
<mystowl> xtian stuck a crusifix in lowell
<Pern_26> mm grimakin
<Pern_26> grimalkin
<Grimalkin> mm sorry I am late
<Xina> mma to all that were dumped
<Xina> mm to all that are just coming on
<Brmhilda> oh that reminds me anyone here that wants to argue or convert leave now
<Pern_26> mm tycho
<Barbarian> LOL mystowl!
<Xina> anyone who wants to convert or argue needs to go elsewhere
<Grimalkin> can we log this??
<Pern_26> AGGREED
<Xina> I am logging
<Brmhilda> yep
<Brmhilda> log away
<Xina> hiya Spidey
<SpiderWlf> hi agian =)
<Brmhilda> hiya spidey :)
<SpiderWlf> still split?
<Grimalkin> was there a split?
<Xina> ok we shall try it again?
<Grimalkin> guess that answered me
<Pern_26> re spider
<SpiderWlf> here they come....
<Xina> mma margot, furryfox,
<mystowl> loral cant even get back on her isp
<Pern_26> re margo, furry fox
<Brmhilda> ok also there is no need to do all the mm's and mp's
<Xina> Tonights topic is Egyptian Religion and Magick...
<DrkMother> egads! did the whole friggin irc die?????
<Margo> wow! I just went cross-country in a flash!  from Lowell to vancover
<Pern_26> drk [nod]
<jack2> I got lost in the split
<Margo> vancouver is pretty clear tonite!
<tycho> their was a split
<tycho> Lowell took a vacation
* Furry_Fox growls at lowell for poofing
<Pern_26> jack [nod]
<Xina> My particular Tradition is called the Kemetic Tradiition....Kemet was the name that the egyptians used 
to call thier country
<Margo> Try.......   vancouver.bc.ca.undernet.org   6662-6669
<jack2> it is so unstable
<Xina> They never thought to call their religion by anything simply because it was SO intergrated into their 
daily lives
<jack2> how do you log?
* DrkMother was wondering the same thing
<Margo> .
<Xina> the closest thing to faith in the Egyptian Language is 'Shemsu Neter' Or 'Follower of the Gods'
<DrkMother> I can't figure how to log only one channel--frigging system wants to log all or none =_
<Margo> mm spidey.....
<Xina> Neter  or Netjer is the same as the word Power or Divinity
<Pern_26> brb
<Xina> It is very different from most magickal and Wiccan Traditions or Pagan Traditions 
<Pern_26> logging now
<Xina> the reason why it is thought the Egyptians believed in many Gods is that to them  the Universal
 Force or Netjer was so unknowable that 
they gave it aspects or faces...thus you had many gods or Netjers
<Xina> the animal headed gods etc were an incorporation of their language and symbology into a belief 
system that they could then apply to thier lives and themselves, the habits and traits observed in nature in various 
animals, etc. were incoporated into the Divinities in an effort to explain the aspects of the Divine.
<Xina> Magick was something that was really reserved for the Priesthood, and of course Egyptian 
Magickians or Priests were legendary
<Xina> The Philosophy at the heart of Kemetic Religion or Egyptian Religion is Ma'at
<Xina> Ma'at is a conncept as well as a Goddess
<Xina> she is the embodyment of Rightness and Trueness in a universal sense, and of course balance.
<Xina> Egyptian religion differs from wicca or most pagan traditions as a temple space is dedicated versus a 
casting of circles etc
<Xina> My particular tradition has little room for ecclecticism, although that is really ok if you are in say 
Egyptian Wicca...that is fine, but it is not how it was parcticed originally and not what we/I practice.
<Xina> What my own personal Trad goes on is what is known and established as ancient ie/. recorded 
<Xina> It is rather complex but hopefully I can answer some questions and we can compare and contrast etc.
<Xina> Dualities of the Gods or Netjers were very important, for every action there is a reaction etc.
<Xina> for example: Sekhmet, a dark Goddess of destruction also was the goddess of healing and protection
<Xina> she was what could be considered rather masculine for a goddess, however her consort, Ptah was 
the creator god of craftsmen etc and had many feminine aspects.
<Xina> and he was the perfect compliment to his more destructive female couterpart
<Xina> The Gods or Netjers are considered not JUST archetypes but the energies are living things just by 
sheer residual energy and 6000+ years of ritual Etc is a LOT of residual energy!
<Xina> and they do represents forces and aspects of Nature and ourselves that can be worked with and 
interacted with.
<Xina> Basically when a Netjer was worshiped you would ALWAYS take a ritual bath before entering temple 
space
<Xina> just as many pagans do today
<Xina> and you would essentially make offerings to the particular Netjer that they liked ...example Sekhmet 
likes Red Beer and Natron and perfumes
<Xina> The reason for these offernings to Sekhmet was when Ra created the 
world and humans and later humans turned away from the Netjers or 
the Gods, he then sent Sekhmet to punish the human population for their arrogance.
<Pern_26> what is the mythological begining of the Netjers?  where did they come from?
<Xina> She went out and drank the blood of her victims and got really happy in doing that
<Xina> PerN: it started from the Netjer Atum...he basically masturbated the universe into being
<Brmhilda> what a cool goddess :)
<Xina> Brm: yes and the other Gods had to trick her with red beer laced with madrake to get her to think 
it was the human blood and to make her stop
<Xina> she got very drunk and very happy and stopped killing people. :)
<mystowl> cool
<Brmhilda> xina does Netjer atum have a gender?
<Xina> from Atum came Shu and Tefnut
<Xina> Brmhilda": he was the first hemaphrodite ;)
<Xina> ;)
<Xina> he was both....
<Pern_26> :-)
<Brmhilda> *nod* :)
<Xina> and then he brought forth Shu and Tefnnut and then Nut and Geb
<Xina> from Geb and Nut came Isis, Osiris, Nephtys, Setekh, Horus (the Elder)
<Xina> so then it went on.
<Xina> each of them taught humanity about the forces of the universe and themselves
<Xina> and without darkness there cannot be light.....there were dualities and aspects that had to be 
considered.
<Xina> each Netjer had a compliment Netjer
<Xina> Thoth was paired with Ma'at 
<Pern_26> neat
<Xina> Thoth was the god of Wisdom, whereas Ma'at was the goddess of Truth
<Grimalkin> and Ba'ast, who did she pair with?
<Xina> those things are important together
<Xina> Bast was connsort with Khonsu
<Grimalkin> :) tks
<Xina> and so it went
<Xina> so if any of you have interjections questions or whatever please feel free
<humungus> who was Set paired with?
<Xina> Set or Setekh, as he is called in Egyptian was with Nephtys or NebetHet
<SpiderWlf> what are some of the other pairs, there is truth and wisdom...
<Xina> Spidey: there is Amun and Mut or Amaunet as she was known earlier, which means the hidden one.
<humungus> so that is night and evil??
<Grimalkin> Xina: I am not sure I understand how the gods work, did they truely believe on multiple gods, or 
are these gods just reflections of the life essence?
<Xina> no Setekh is not 'evil...'.
<Xina> Grimalkin: good question
<Xina> Grim: they are actually both, in worshiping one, you were essentially worshiping all.  
All the Gods (Netjers) are one, we have all heard that axiom.
<Grimalkin> ??
<humungus> as opposed tto light and good xina, isnt that the way it works?
<Xina> They did have many gods but there was a way that they represented that which is un-knowable
<Xina> in other words....they or humanity could not know the universe as a whole,
<Xina> so they found many different aspects to explain universal forces, broke it up into more 
comprehensible peices.
<Xina> for example Tefnut literally represented 'moisture'
<Xina> where as Shu was the god of air
<Xina> air and wind makes rain, and so forth
<Grimalkin> now I understand better :)
<Pern_26> cool
<Brmhilda> xina how is it different from other traditions aside from the god i mean
<Xina> There was no drawing down of the moon etc, as in Wiccan ritual but there was alot of what would 
almost be equated as possession by the Netjers
<Brmhilda> possession?
<Xina> It is different in that a Temple space is dedicated versus a casting of circle
<Brmhilda> so a temple space is permenant?
<Xina> The interaction with the Gods is certainly different in that they are entreated with offerings as well as 
requests
<Xina> Brm: you would set up like an altar....and dedicate that space, yes
<Grimalkin> xina, when u say possession, do u mean like channeling today?
<Xina> it was no different than say the Bhuddists
<Pern_26> what would the priests do while traveling in an area without temples?
<Xina> Grimalkin: similar, but less delusion I assure you...the training is really deep
<Xina> every home had a space.  To emphasize, no or homes stand to day because they were 
built of mud brick, but Temple made of permanent materials and they were central to the life in each 
village or city.
<Pern_26> so you had say, a mini-temple in your house?
<Pern_26> big if rich?
<humungus> xina from reading Ive done it appears that the egyptian priesthood was exclusively male, is there 
a reason for this??
<Xina> Pern: everyone would have a netjer or several to identify with
<Pern_26> okk
<Xina> Hummy: no that is not the case at all.
<Xina> The Priestesses in Thebes were as powerful as a governor and sometimes second only to 
Pharaoh himself.  
<humungus> oh ok I must be reading the wrong books then
<Xina> they could own property and some were very wealthy
<Pern_26> wow, more power to the woman
<Brmhilda> xina is this tradtion still flourishing?
<SpiderWlf> how was magick employed in everyday life?  from what i understand, diety was constructed to 
practicaly, scientifically, explain the forces of nature and the universe...
<Xina> Read the Inner Guide to Egypt
<SpiderWlf> was there lunar rites, an equilivant to sabats, or holidays?
<Xina> Brmhilda : yes....the House of Netjer, run by Tamara Siuda Legan
<Xina> there were holidays for almost every single calendar day .....they had lots o gods as you know
<humungus> is thi a rediscovery of old tradition or a carry down through generations xina?
<Xina> they were the most joyous people in the world according to herodotus, and indeed they loved life and 
celebrated often so potentially every day was a celebration in honour of some Netjer.
* Grimalkin has always found Egyptian ritual very forgien to me, the language, I am always afraid of 
pronouncing things wrong
*** moreta has left IRC
<Xina> Hummy it is not reconstructionist in they follow what is archaeologically known 
<Xina> and there is a great deal left of rituals etc
<Xina> there is little ecclecticism
<Pern_26> what is  ecclecticism
<Xina> but I have nothing against that in people who incorporate Egyptian Gods into their Wiccan practices
<Grimalkin> perm, winging it
<Xina> eccelctic...IE making it up
<Brmhilda> good :)
<humungus> great answer grim
<Pern_26> hee he hee   thanks
<Xina> So because of my background in Egyptology I tend to stay with the established as what it was...
not what I wish it had been...
<Xina> in other words Im a fucking purist!
<Xina> ;))
<humungus> do current practitioners also carry through on ancient egyptian concepts of journey afterlife?
<Taoiccan> :-)
<Brmhilda> heheh 
<Grimalkin> hehehheeh xina
* Barbarian grins.
<Xina> hummy: somewhat...
<Pern_26> Puritan! where!
* Pern_26 looks frantically aroud
<Xina> mummification is no longer really practical
<humungus> can youexplain them then?
<Xina> Hummy do you want to be a mummy?!?! 
<Xina> ;))
<DrkMother> =)
<humungus> hahah no I am comfortble on my side of the fence
<Brmhilda> mummifcation was wild
<jack2> you would probably end up in jail for that :-)
<Barbarian> Xina, was mummification a form of macumba...er, necromancy?
<Xina> Barbarian: no...the body was important in the afterlife
<Barbarian> *nod*
<Xina> now a days reading the Pert em Hru or book of the dead at a memorial etc and cremation is the 
accepted norm
<SpiderWlf> what are some of the main ideas about death and the afterlife, ie, is there a belife in 
reincarnation? a paradise of sorts?
<Pern_26> hell?
<Xina> They loved life so much that they wanted to have it continue into the next plane of existence
<Xina> there is a place called the Duat, where if your heart is pure and you did well in life you went there...
<Xina> its sort of like heaven but much better
<Xina> and you interacted with the living of course
<Brmhilda> what was considered purity of heart?
<Rozes> how can anyplace be better then heaven?
<Xina> Brmhilda: they basically said if you have not caused harm to another
<Xina> if you have not stolen from the Temple, 
<Brmhilda> *nod* but that is not part of their religion like a rede
<Brmhilda> right?
<Xina> sort of like that
<Xina> they had something called the negative confession where you say I have not done these things
<SpiderWlf> and if your heart wasnt pure?
<Xina> even if you have its something to shoot for...and there is of course forgiveness 
<humungus> did they interact with a favourite god and did they receive patronage from that god?
<Xina> if you truly wanted to live a good life
<Barbarian> Wasn't the heart of every person weighed on the scales of Ma'at?
<Xina> Hummy: yes....there were always favorite or patron gods
<Xina> Barbarian: yes....and that was what the negative confession was about....if you said that before you 
died essentially it was like a heavnly disclaimer
<Xina> ;)
<Brmhilda> oh i have a question about duality
<humungus> and were there gods construed to be "good" and gods construed to be "not good"
<humungus> brmmy I am getting there
<Xina> alot of times a god or goddes chooses you...such as in MY own case
<Xina> there were aspects that were destructive and aspects that were creative as with the forces of 
nature.   do we assume to judge a storm or a flood?  the same concept applies.
<Brmhilda> so then there is no good/evil? only oppposited?
<Brmhilda> opposites
<Xina> there is necessary balance....that is all
<humungus> ok so if I accepted the patronage of a god/goddess who wasof the destructive aspects, and 
faithfully followed, how would i be placed for progress to heaven, nirvana, etc
<Xina> without Setekh, there would be no creation, without his murdering his brother Osiris, there would be 
no life after death
<humungus> and without evil there would be no good?
<Xina> hummy let us assume you are a priest of Setekh
<humungus> yes
<Xina> Setekh was the only Netjer strong enough to keep the universe going when it was going to be 
consumed by the Apep serpent (oblivion)
<Xina> Without one or the other...what do we have....oblivion
<Xina> that was the lesson that so many in more recent times have failed to see and so we have inquisitions 
and such to fight for religious supremecy/control
<humungus> but that seems to argue that some sense of obligation is created by some sort of balance 
created by destructive forces
<Xina> later after the invasions of Egypt the religion got convoluted into the good /evil thing
<Xina> hummy let me rephrase...
<Xina> the pantheon of Egypt was very large and complex, but without the opposer Setekh there would 
have been no necessary balance and counterbalance at all
<Xina> the Egyptians thought symbologically, and on multiple levels, very different from western thought.
<Xina> I bet I am out of time
<humungus> naa keep going
<Xina> ok I will
<Barbarian> Go on, Xina, please!!
<Xina> I guess I want to answer questions....
<Xina> since I probably lost everyone!! ;PP
<Grimalkin> NOT!!! in fact, can u suggest a begining reading list?
<jack2> :-)
<Xina> oh yes
<humungus> so if one accepts duality (I do) then isnt the real answer to accept our own duality and balance 
the polar opposites within, is that what egyptian religion proposed?
<Taoiccan> Xina:  You mentioned the "Inner Guide to Egypt" -- any other recommendable books?
<Xina> I have lots  o books to suggest
<DrkMother> Xina: was great, thanks  =)
<Xina> hummy: yes...we all have aspects of ourselves that are necessary to face, for good or ill
<Xina> The Neteru of Kemet by Tamara Siuda-Legan
<humungus> is that what the egyptians were focussing on using symbology?
<jack2> mp all
<Xina> Awakening Osiris by Normandi Ellis
<Xina> Dreams of Isis by Normandi Ellis
<Xina> hummy; symbological and multiplicity of thought
<humungus> ah sounds like an embracing of the male principle that one xina, osiris
<Xina> a book with a wiccan slant would be Invocation of the Gods by Ellen Cannon Reed
<Xina> yes pern it is looge
<Xina> logged even!! :PP
<Xina> There is a web site forthe House of Netjer
<Pern_26> even beter :_
* Grimalkin likes the 2 tounges
<Grimalkin> xina, do u have that URL?
<Xina> http://users.aol.com/hetnetjer/private/hetntr.html
<Xina> this is run by Rev. Tamara Legan the head Priestess of House of Netjer
<Pern_26> mp mma all, need to go now
<Xina> and there is an EXTENSIVE reading list there
<Grimalkin> tks :)
<Xina> the best place to start
<Pern_26> |\  /|
<Pern_26> | \/ |
<Pern_26> | /\ |
<Pern_26> |/\ \|
<Pern_26> | /\ |\
<Pern_26> |/  \|
<Pern_26>  |                                        |\ /|
<Pern_26> \|  |\    /| |\/ |\    /| |\  |  |\    /| | X |
<Xina> wow that was entertaining
<Xina> ;P
<Brmhilda> hahahaha
<Grimalkin> weird
<humungus> very phallic hahahahaha
<Xina> well any more questions...I feel I have left alot unsaid, but its an ongoing process
*** Joins: Brigid (brigid.chi@argusbbs.com)
<Xina> all of us do our processes...
<Barbarian> Thank you, Xina, for a really wonderful lecture!  I didn't say much, but I learned a lot I didn't 
know.  :)
<Grimalkin> xina, ya coundn't have covered it all in an hour, but u did a wonderful job!!!!!!!!! THANKS
<humungus> when ya went to UK did ya visit the British Museum xina??
<mystowl> nite all loral is on phone she says hi cant get on her isp
<Brmhilda> the problem is i don't know what to ask
<Margo> most interesting xina......thank you dear!!
<mystowl> mp all
<Grimalkin> <clap, clap, clap>
<Xina> thanks people....
<Taoiccan> Xina:  Thank you!!!!   I'll be reading more -- thanks for the pointers!!
* ladygrace sighs
<ladygrace> missed it again
<SpiderWlf> very interesting =) = =)
<Xina> you are welcome
<mystowl> xina GREAT
<Xina> Ladygrace its logged
<Brmhilda> xina thank you thank you soooo much *mwah*
<Xina> Brmmy: I feel so empty now!! *sob*
<Brmhilda> haha empy???
<Brmhilda> naaaaa
<Grimalkin> NOTE: IF U R ON MIRC TURN OFF YOUR LOGS BEFORE ENTERING #WICCA
<humungus> yes xina you have stimulated my interet in reading more
<Xina> no brm empty
<Barbarian> I shall see you all in #wicca! :)
* Brmhilda fills xina up with love
<Xina> thank you brmmy
<Brmhilda> gotta a rumbin in you tummy??? *wink*
<Brmhilda> rumblin
<SpiderWlf> thanks Xina so much!!
* SpiderWlf will see everyone in #Wicca
<Xina> spidey thanks
<Rabbi> I'm sorry I missed it Xina. I'm sure it was great.
* Grimalkin will see u all in #wicca
<humungus> mp Im off thanx xina, see ya next door in wicca
<Xina> Rabbi: we can send a logs
<Xina> ok
<Xina> be there 
<Rabbi> Cool. I'd like to see it.
<Xina> Rabbi: good enough...I will edit and DCC tomorrow?
<Taoiccan> Rabbi:  It *was* -- do get a log of it!
<Rabbi> Works for me. 
<Rabbi> You can send me the raw if you want.
<Xina> ok will do
Session Close: Wed Apr 24 22:16:43 1996