Session Start: Wed Jan 24 22:11:40 1996
* Logging #pathweaving to: [#pathwea.log]
<OldGerald> ah! same here, Brm!
<Grynner> ditto
<SlvrSplsh> I will argue the consequences of sin, but basically, sin is a violation of 
accepted ethics. Sin is sin, the difference is in punishment concepts
* SSeraphin looks at OG I have a few floating around here I would love to send 
you friend <LeVians!!<G>
* SpiderWlf welcomes everyone to the channel =)
> since someone brought up "sin" i thought it was a good place :)
<OldGerald> Slvr: I've always thought of "sin" as a crime against the gods, which 
for me is impossible...
<Xina> LeVey is a JOKE
<Loralei> interesting, splash
*** Joins: tragik (sorrow@clc.cyber-link.com)
* SSeraphin has pondered sin and still unconvinced
<MorgLeFay> mm Tragik :)
> i do not believe in sin
<OldGerald> mm tragik!
* tragik sneeks in..
<Grynner> Slvr, But Sin is like Evil, it all depends on who you talk to as to what it 
is
<Xina> OG: there is no such thing as sin...evil is only chosing not to know not to 
see
* OldGerald does not believe in sin.....guilt is enough!
<SlvrSplsh> That is the mistake most make, but taken as a violation of accepted 
ethics, it comes into the real world
<Xina> All are choices that we make
* SpiderWlf doesnt either..i dont believe in any kind of absolute law..which sin is 
dependant on
<Loralei> imho, anact is not sinful, it just carries karmic weight, be it good or bad
* SlvrSplsh doesn't believe in guilt, but does sin
<Xina> sin, guilt, mistake, wahtever, you CHOOSE to violate your own ehtics or 
not
* Dara-w thinks of 'sin' as something that harms others
<tragik> loralei:  thats exactly how i feel
<OldGerald> no act is inherrantly evil (sinful), but is neutral...
* Grynner believes Sin belongs to the Moralists and has nada to ddo with the 
Craft
<SSeraphin> Xina I thing if someone believes in something that makes it have a 
form of existance <<even if others dont acept or believe>
<Xina> OG: agreed..
<Loralei> agrred, xina
*** Joins: cybrfarer (~sdadams@ix-no3-21.ix.netcom.com)
<OldGerald> what determines the karmic weight of an act is the motivation behind 
it....
<OldGerald> mm cybr!
* MorgLeFay hugz Cyber!!!
<Xina> SS: that's true
<SpiderWlf> good and evil?? i dont buy that idea...cause and effect is more how i 
see it
<cybrfarer> mm OldGerald
<MorgLeFay> hope you guys don't mind .. i invited a friend. :)
<Loralei> sseraphin, so sin exists for you, but not the rest of us
> Ethics: this topic tonight was chosen to discuss what is ethical to do in magick 
and to our respective traditions, karma and such
> hell looks like i don't even have to open :)
* cybrfarer hugs MorgLeFay tightly!!
<MorgLeFay> Brm> looks like :)
<Dara-w> Old G:  motivation,...hhhmmmm  if my motivation is 'good' does the end 
justify the means
<OldGerald> what is ethical? hmmm....
<SSeraphin> Lor no I dont believe in sin!!<G>...I am saying though that if one 
does believe it is part of their believes then some things will be realized in that 
context!!
<Xina> which brings up the question....
<SlvrSplsh> All you are doing is redefining sin into terms acceptable to you 
OG....semantics
<Grynner> Dara, depends upon your personal beliefs
<OldGerald> Dara: Well, you must be sure of the motivation, not what you "think" 
the moticvation is....
<SSeraphin> sematic I hate semantis!! grrr <that word should be washed away <I 
am blind NOW!!<G>
* Xina makes it a policy to live life like she MEANS it...and there is NO sin there
<SlvrSplsh> I agree, Xina....
<Dara-w> OldG:  Still can be tricky,... how many are able to pick apart to get 
down to the gut of it
> xina agreed!!!!!
<Loralei> sseraphin, i definitely agreed with what you said - if a person believes in 
sin - i had misunderst=ood you, i thought you believed in sin for yourself
<SSeraphin> Dara the gut of what ??
<Xina> you make an evaluation IMHO rather than motivation, as long as you are 
willing to accept the consequenses and pickup the pieces if something falls 
apart
<SpiderWlf> every act has its consequences...nothing is absolutely good or bad, 
right ir evil...we do have to consider the results of our actions, and if that would 
be a desireble effect
<OldGerald> Like attracts like...what you do DOES return...just be sure what you 
do is what you wouldn't mind happening to *you*
<Dara-w> SS:  self,.. motivation,... truth,... which one you choose
<SSeraphin> Lor nope I dont believe in sin or evil!! <I dont think I ever did...as a 
kid I was confused deeply by the concept!!>
* brmhilda picks down to the gut of it, i feel for me personally that's the only 
responsible thing to do
<Xina> brm: TRUE!!
* Dara-w agrees with brm
> s0o what if i get obbsessive :)
<Dara-w> evil:  now there's a word,.. huh?
<OldGerald> Dara: we can all tell when we're operating from a position of hate or 
anger...we justy fool ourselves into thinking otherwise....
<SSeraphin> Dara I always choose truth it always gets w me to where AI need to 
be <even on a bad hair day><G>
<Xina> responsibility = not finger pointing and blaming when things do go wrong
<Dara-w> brm:  a little obsessive/compulsive isn't necissarily a bad thing  :)
*** Joins: chocoWtch (~not@sifi.mindspring.com)
<Xina> brm: tina says: awareness, willingness to change, honest evaluation of your 
ability to accept responsibility
<SpiderWlf> sseraphin, which truth? *grin*
> dara: i have to be to make sure i am doing the will of the GODS
<Xina> and the act of change
<chocoWtch> Greetings
<MorgLeFay> mm ChocoWtch. :)
<OldGerald> Sometimes, even hexing is allowed by Craft Ethics......
<Xina> that is what can deal with the obsessiveness, brm
<OldGerald> mm choco!
<Dara-w> Xina:  true,.. maturity,.. getting rid of selfishness
*** Joins: _Strider (~forrj000@res-031.res.unbc.edu)
<MorgLeFay> mm Strider :)
<Xina> OG: and im all for hexing if it is warranted...
<Loralei> og, xina, in your opinion, what warrants hexing?
<SpiderWlf> im not into hexing...
<SSeraphin> Spidey wellthe truth that speaks to my heart and moves me to 
action!!<smile>
* brmhilda does hexes and has no problem in doing them if warrarnted
<OldGerald> ??
<OldGerald> MM STRIDER!
<SSeraphin> OG what do you mean SOMETIMES???
<_Strider> MM all
<SSeraphin> OG the context we unfold our ethics in is based on our laws I 
believe??
* Dara-w believes that not using the 'dark' side (hexes and the like) keeps one 
from being truely balanced
<Xina> Loralei: someone who violated a 12 year friendship and me personally..I 
invoked Sekhmet who did 'just enough' to set it to right
<Loralei> brm, xina, og, so you take fate into your hands, and become an executor 
t=of the threefold law when you hex?
<OldGerald> SSer: Like when my HPS' daughter was molested...the slime needed 
a hella spell put on him to keep him from flee-ing...
> loralei i can state what warranted the one of only 2 hexes i have done so far
<SpiderWlf> i think a persons own actions, karma, whatever you like, will get 
them...i dont really want that on my hands, so i dont hex
<chocoWtch> wwl
<Xina> Dara: what BALANCE is there in complete whitelightism?!
<SSeraphin> Xina and if there be Karma leftover ..you but it ob plastic right <I 
have a Karma Credit card too!!<G>
<Loralei> but xina, you invoked sekhmet, and Sekhmet did the deed
<Dara-w> Xina:  that's what I mean
<Xina> there is neutrality only in magick, no black no white, no colour or evil
*** Joins: ctrymouse (~fleur@port-4-23.access.one.net)
<Xina> Loralei: yes..and her answer to my request was a resounding okey dokey
<MorgLeFay> mm Ctrymouse :)
<OldGerald> Lor: I am willing to take my right to defend those I love from those I 
don't!
<OldGerald> mm ctry!
<Dara-w> OldG:  with a molester I dealt with,.. I 'bound' him and spelled that the 
truth would be brought forth
> loralei, someone was threatening the life of my child and the police were not 
doing anything about it, i have no qualms what soever taking the karma for that
<Dara-w> mm ctrymouse
<Brylie> The concept of balance is fine but being completely balanced almost 
seems pointless... if you take one step in one direction and one step in the 
opposite, you'll never move anywhere.  
<Grynner> Lor: I am also willing to exact some retribution for certain acts against 
those I care for
<Xina> OG: right...
<SpiderWlf> id see that more on working own yourself to protect yourself..which 
doesnt require invloving someone else...self preservation i s essential
<Loralei> what i am hearing is a lot of defending, protecting, and binding to stop 
harm, and all those i believe are ethical
<MorgLeFay> Brm> i don't think there'd be any bad karma from protecting 
someone like that ..
<Xina> brmhilda: in that case you were completely justified
<Dara-w> Brylie:  is like perfection,...not quite attainable on this level,.. imhp
* Brylie nods at Dara, exactly
<chocoWtch> I agree Loralei
<OldGerald> What is important is if you're doing a spell from a position of LOVE 
or not....Brm LOVES her child, and THAT prompted her actions....it aroused 
her protective instincts.....
<MorgLeFay> same here.
> loralei even so: when binding you are messing with someones will there is still 
karma
<SSeraphin> Spidey sometimes its not clear <or easy> to stay away from 
effecting others with our magick if that mean protecting those we care about 
from others who use their personal power to decieve hurt or harm in ways we 
cant control in anyothe wya!!
<Loralei> agreed, og
<Xina> ok so Mama Z Budapest says: a witch who cannot hex cannot heal...
<OldGerald> thus, even a HEX is not negative in those circumstances...
<chocoWtch> true brm
<Grynner> Brylie, Think of it like walking a tightrope. You can go left or right, but 
if you maintain perfect balance you can make it to the end of the rope
<MorgLeFay> Brm> doens't one outweigh the other??
<SSeraphin> Xina I agree with that <personally>!!
<SpiderWlf> ss, no, i see brm protecting her child as more self-preservation..worki
ng for the good of her child, not harming anything..
<Xina> if you are starting from a point of emotion there is greater success in 
makeing the spell work
<ctrymouse> true, Xina
<SSeraphin> Spidey i was not speaking of Broomy   I was speaking as a witch!!
<Xina> SS: as do I personally, however Tina (sowulo does not share this view)
<Brylie> Grynner:  I guess the way I see it is if you don't lean towards one 
direction or the other at least slightly more than the other, you're so "balanced" 
that it doesn't make much progress in either direction
<chocoWtch> but to maintain perfect balance you must sway to both sides freely
<OldGerald> A Witch MUST be able to command ALL kinds of powers....not 
just the "ffelgood" ones....
<SSeraphin> Spidey and from my experience I guess
<Loralei> i feel that inaction in certain instances is worse than hexing or severe 
binding - what are ypour thoughts?
<Dara-w> Xina:  then that's when we need to make sure emotion doesn't rule our 
actions
<OldGerald> Lor: Exactly! To *not* act can be worse than acting in a hex...
> loralei i agree
<ctrymouse> Dara: emotion makes spells "go"
<SpiderWlf> ss, ahh...well, then, in more abstract terms..if we are working to 
protect, strengthen, or enpower people we love and care about, i cant see how 
that is harm..period.
<Dara-w> Lor:  I agree to an extent,.. if I stand by and watch horrors and do 
nothing ,..I'm wrong
<Xina> Dara: its not the emotion that rule our actions in that sense...its where the 
ethics come into play.  having sound ethics can keep someone from becoming 
ung\balanced
<SSeraphin> OG I think its something we must come to terms withion our own 
practice <as solitaires or as Covens/Groves>
<OldGerald> Lor: To allow a bad thing to happen by doing nothing is as bad as 
doing it your self....
<SpiderWlf> oldg, *nod*
*** Joins: Llyren (~lfd102@clrc_pc9.aa.psu.edu)
* Loralei *nods* towards OldG
<Xina> to NOT act can be worse than hexing, then fine,., I am guilty of all those 
things, then where do we allow for lessons and non intervention
<Dara-w> ctry:  yes they go but must look at the emotions for the truth of our 
actions,.. if I'm mad and hit the cat,... my emotions ruled,.. not common sense
<Llyren> mm all
<OldGerald> SSer: we need to counter-act the LLewellyn/fluffybunny type of 
"wicca"...
<OldGerald> mm LLeryn!
<MorgLeFay> mm Llyren :)
<ctrymouse> Dara: I mean...it's hard to make a spell work without *feeling* 
something for what you are doin.
<OldGerald> LLyren, even...
<ctrymouse> +g
<tragik> so basicly what everyones saying is that, while hexing maybe look on as 
"bad" is not actauly "bad" given the modivation behind it...
<Xina> OG: dont get me started on LLewllyn fluff bunny
<OldGerald> tragik: Exactly...
<Dara-w> ctry:  yep,.. I agree with that,.. emotion and need
<Loralei> xina => that is the only way we can learn to make good judgements, by 
having had poor judgement in the past
<SSeraphin> Spidey what if it harms another outside our main stream of 
concern..or one who goes agains our desires..wishes or rules of order..are there 
rules for this that we can unfold that woudl apply to ALL??
> dara so if i hexed my neighbor for hanging my cat, i was then ruled by my 
emotions
<Brylie> I don't think there's anything wrong with "fluffybunniness" as long as the 
person's head doesn't get lost in the clouds.
<Dara-w> brm:  was it for revenge alone?
<OldGerald> tragik: It may be "bad" to the person who fucked up and got the hex 
on him, but they could have avoided it by not provoking it...
<Xina> judgement in itself assumes that we know more or better than someone 
else. Ethics is what precludes making judgemental mistakes IMHO
<Dara-w> brylie:  or in the bunny fuzz
* Brylie grins at Dara
> dara, most likely she killed my cat
<tragik> brm:  right, but that would be acting in anger rather than for the good of 
anyone..  therefore it would be concitered bad ethics?
<Dara-w> brm:  most likely??????
<SSeraphin> OG what if that is what they need or why they are here??
*** Joins: Minstrel (logain@matrix.eden.com)
<Loralei> xina, maybe i should have used the word chioice instead of judgement
<Xina> Brylie: well thats what happens with most IRABS (I read a books)
<SpiderWlf> ss, i dont there there is any rule that applies to any situation...so, i 
cant think there is a "rule that would apply for ALL"
<Grynner> brm, I woulda just beat them for that, vice hexing them
<OldGerald> Brylie: But they DO tend to water down conversations...
<tragik> OG:  right.  the karma came back to them by way of the person doing the 
hexing..
<OldGerald> mm Minstrel!
<SpiderWlf> emr dont think there is..
<MorgLeFay> mm Minstrel :)
<Minstrel> mm all
<Xina> Loralie: I can accept choice cause that impklies coinsequenses, and Brm 
understood thaty
> dara: i won't make excuses for my behavior and i still satnd by what i did, she 
killed my cat now we can ask what was i trying to teach her, nothing
<OldGerald> SSer: well, they could always stay prespeterian (the fluufs, that is...) 
;)
* Brylie nods...I am on a "lightworking" mailing list and there's quite a few on 
there who are fluffybunny to the max... that I have a problem with... trying to 
think positively and direct ones' energies in a positive manner in general, though, I 
don't mind.
<Dara-w> Brm:  hhhmmmm,... your path,.. your choices,.... 
<Xina> OG: one would hope...but then there is always the new llewlyn watered 
down stuff
<OldGerald> (wotta conversation!)
<SSeraphin> Spidey I agree <except maybe that which we take on a personal 
creded accoring to tradition or dedication>!!
<OldGerald> :)
> dara if she learns not to kill another animal by that then maybe i have 
accomplished something
<MorgLeFay> <nod>
<Loralei> true, brm
<Xina> Brylie: so am I-0 I get Sanaya Roman's stuff and I like her
<Dara-w> Brm:  would have done it dif.  
<Brylie> Xina: cool  :)
<tragik> but would hexing really teach someone a lesson?  i wouldnt think so..
<OldGerald> Brm: Or maybe not to piss off a Magickal Type....}-:.
<OldGerald> };->, even...
*** Joins: harfang (~willow1@dialup239.iserv.net)
<SSeraphin> tragick it may not be really about teaching a dern thing..more 
prtecting that which we must!!
<Xina> mm harfang
<Loralei> mm harfang!!
<OldGerald> harfy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<harfang> mm everyone
<Llyren> especially when the person does not know the source of the hexing
<MorgLeFay> HARF!!!!
<MorgLeFay> mm HArfang!!
* SSeraphin swings Har around and around!!
> dara, i invoked bast and brought her to it so i believe i did the gossesses will
<Grynner> mm harfang
<Dara-w> is protection the same as revenge?  general question
> er goddesses will
<harfang> morg!!!!!!!! ;)
>  dara what would you have done differently?
*** Joins: SwiftSeas (~twhitley@slipper2b.xtalwind.net)
<tragik> SS:  eh, i think, though, that hexing someone for killing your cat, it more 
out of revenge/anger rather then to bring about good..
<MorgLeFay> mm SwiftSeas :)
* MorgLeFay hugz HArf tightly!!
<Xina> Brmhilda: ohhh you brought out the BIG guns!! Bastet does not mess 
around!
<Grynner> Ussually no.  Protection is before the fact and Revenge is after
> xina nope :)
<Brylie> Llyren:  but life is constantly teaching us lessons on its own... whether or 
not a person learns from them isn't always guaranteed, but at least perhaps the 
hex can bring about the intended outcome
<Loralei> question: if we invoke a goddess or god, aren't we asking them to fulfill 
karma, or are we becoming them and forcing karma ourselves?
<OldGerald> Grynner: Agreed!
<Llyren> truly, the killer of the cat will be justiced through the will of the goddess, 
whether it be through our own hand or hers
<ctrymouse> Loralei: just by *being* we are affecting others
<OldGerald> Lor: Asking them.....unless a drawing down is performed...
<Xina> tragick: did it help Brm deal with her loss...did it pinpoint the perpetrator?
<Dara-w> brm:  Lost my wolf hybrid this last summer because of similar 
ignorance as you had... as much as I grieved and felt anger,.. (trying to phrase 
answer)
<Xina> Tragick: then it was successful and ethical 
*** Joins: aestra (slanier@dial1.radiks.net)
<OldGerald> aestra!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> dara she hung my cat because he sat on her car
<aestra> mm all!
<Llyren> mm aestra
<Loralei> aestra!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<ctrymouse> eeek brm!!! *hugs*!
*** Joins: Brigid (brigid.chi@argusbbs.com)
<Xina> mm AESTRA!!!!
<Llyren> mm brigid
<tragik> xina:  someone can kill my dog, and i go kill them, sure, it'll bring about aa 
momentary sence of feeling better, but agian, did it bring about any good?  no..
<OldGerald> Brm: And HOW many body parts fell off her? ;>
* Loralei hugs all
<Brigid> MM, all....
<Dara-w> To lash out at those resposible or that I thought was resposible would 
serve no purpose that I could see,...
<SSeraphin> Tragick I dont know If i would do magick for that reason..i would 
blast them with bombast...but I dont know I may do something soi that my 
words were reinforced too!!
<ctrymouse> brmhilda: I would've done the same as you did
*** Joins: Awo (keke_awo@198.80.32.50)
<Llyren> and yur conscience will get the better of you
> so yes it was out of emotion and i asked bast for her wrath
*** harfang is now known as Eris
<Xina> tragick: she didnt kill them...she invoked Bast...what bast does is up to 
HER...
<tragik> dara:  i agree
<tragik> xina:  i know that, i was making an example.
<Brigid> Okay...what did I miss???
<OldGerald> tragik: Nah, not KILL em.....make them live with what they've 
done...
<OldGerald> mm Brigid!
<Brigid> My favorite spell for occasions such as I think you are describing is 
simply "May the Lady grant you all that you have earned..."
<Dara-w> Xina:  that sounds like a technical way to absolve self frm 
respostibility
<Loralei> bri, brm is logging, transcript availabl;e later; ehtics of hexing
<Xina> Brm: be careful with the Egyptian deities love, the Neteru really do move 
things quickly ;)
> dara: i she knows why and what she is cursed for
*** chocoWtch is now known as OYA
* Brylie nods at Brigid
<Xina> Dara: no...its not
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*** Quits: Xina (Manhattan.KS.US.Undernet.Org Norman.OK.US.undernet.org)
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g)
<Awo> Good evening all!
<Loralei> i like that bri, i will keep it in mind
<OldGerald> Xina: Right...the Gods are open to our wishes, but will not do 
anything against the limits of karma....
<Brigid> Simply request for a karmic speedup.
<OldGerald> mmAwo!~
<ctrymouse> eep
<SSeraphin> I have hexed.
<Dara-w> brm:  if you feel good about your behavior,.. I cannot judge it
> dara: i know the karma i will pay but i am willing to except it without problem
<Brigid> (How lagged am I?)
<tragik> old:  it was an example..  my point was, revenge brings about a feeling of 
getting over it, while there are better ways to go about dealing with a situation 
that can bring about a better result.
<SpiderWlf> dara, i dont agreee...what the gods, divinity does is really up to 
them...
<SSeraphin> Brig spin the wheel!!??<Oh ya doen that too...sheesh it woprks but 
what price>
*** Quits: MorgLeFay (Ping timeout for MorgLeFay[166.82.196.2])
*** Quits: SwiftSeas (Sorry, gotto go.. the tide is coming in!)
<Dara-w> Xina:  If I have a gun and shoot it out of anger,... I am still responsible 
where that round goes,.. to send a diety to do your dirty work is very similar to 
me
> dara: it's a matter of me being responsible for my actions, not about feeling good 
about it or justifying it , i know what i am doing
<OldGerald> Dara: No, just being assured that the Gods will do what they 
wish....
<OldGerald> damn! mini split!
<Brigid> I will not hex.
<OldGerald> Brigid: Not even if your children were threatened?
<SlvrSplsh> I agree Dara
<SpiderWlf> now saying oh dietyname go kick their ass and make them die is 
differnt, thats more of a visualization, but just leaving it up to the gods to do as 
they will is something else
<Dara-w> slvr:  thank you
<SSeraphin> Dara I dont think aNYONE IS PASSING ON RESPONSIBLITY 
FOR THE MAGICK THEY MAKE HERE??<ARE THEY?
<tragik> old:  to protect your children and taking revenge on someone for killing 
your cat are to entirely differant situations.
> no again i said there are some tings i am more than happy to p[ay the karma 
for
<Dara-w> ss:  please don't yell,.. I can hear fine  :)
<Brigid> OG....I will NOT hex...not even if one of my children was threatened...
<Loralei> if the cat is your familiar, they are pretty close
<OYA> I try rather than hexing, to offer it up to the gods/esses for them to right 
the situation.
<Grynner> I agree brm
<ctrymouse> a cat is as dear as a child, sometimes
<SSeraphin> Dar Sorry..I keep hitting my caps lock <why do they put it there 
anyways??<G>
<Brigid> I will most certainly take every method of defense I can....and that's 
including mundane and magickal...
<OYA> kinda like asking them for a speedy judgement
<Dara-w> the old witches hexed all the time,.. they were the protectors of their 
villages
<OldGerald> Brigid: do you not worry about wasting your gift? Or of being guilty 
of doing wrong, not because you DID it, but because you did NOT do what you 
could?
<Brigid> Agreed, Ctrymouse.
<ctrymouse> (and this from a mouse) eep
<Brigid> OG, it takes as much effort to defend as to hamr...
<SSeraphin> ctryamouse hmm I have both..and put more value on my children!!
<OYA> certainly oh
<Brigid> And my gift is more for healing than for hexing.
<OldGerald> Brigid: But what of using a hex as defense?
<Dara-w> imho,... is not up to me to decide what someone elses karmic debt is or 
to punish for actions of others,.. all are at a dif level of development on their 
spirit journey
*** Joins: Xina (~jump@s4016.netins.net)
*** Joins: aestra (slanier@dial1.radiks.net)
<Xina> hey...netspit
<Brigid> Did we actually set a group definition of hex?
<OldGerald> mma Xina!
<SSeraphin> Brig my gift is of that nature too..I pay dearly when I hex!!!!!
<Loralei> no we did not
<OYA> intent and motivation have much to do with any such action, in terms of 
returning energy.
<OldGerald> mma aestra!
<aestra> mma!!!
> brigid again that brings us to how can one heal if one cannot destroy?
<Brigid> Hex, to me, has a very negative connotation, OG...implying attack, not 
defense.
<tragik> ctry:  perhaps, but i protect my child before a cat anyday..  i just feel that 
protection of family, ect..  is very differant than hexing for the killing of you cat.  
sure, anger is a natural reponce, but hexing isnt.
<Grynner> brigid, not 'specially
<Dara-w> re xina and aestra
<Llyren> if someone threatens to kill you, would it be correct to hex them 
toprevent this. i think it would.
<Xina> mm everyone
<Llyren> mm
<OYA> yeah, it hits hards and fast sometimes if you do things wrong
<tragik> llyren: i agree.
<OldGerald> Brigid: I will have no problems hexing a rapist with impotense if that 
is what's needed.....
<Loralei> someone pls define hex
*** Parts: Xina (~jump@s4016.netins.net)
<SlvrSplsh> I constantly comend people to the judgement of the Gods, but that 
is'nt the same as asking them to punish for you....
<Dara-w> llyren: what about trusting your own powers to protect you?
<Brigid> I think, Llyren, that it would be MORE appropriate to set your wards and 
then to take mundane action.
*** Joins: Xina (~jump@s4016.netins.net)
<Loralei> lol, oldg
<Xina> mm
> mma xina
* SSeraphin looks at Eris and say..Shhhh your making too much noise M'lady!!
<Grynner> Brigid, but a HEX is a spell, albeit with more physical ramifications 
than others, for protection, harm or health
<Dara-w> slvr:  yes,... leave it to those more wise than me
* Eris is NOT making noise SillySeraphin :)
<OldGerald> Hex: A spell that harms another
<Brigid> OG...that's more likely to aggravate the situation...rape is NOT about 
sex...it's about power..and if the rapist can't express his anger and exercise 
power by raping his victim, he's likely to do worse.
* SSeraphin says MAgick is Magick!!!!!!
<OYA> og, that wont stop a rapist 
<Brigid> How can you reconcile a hex with the Rede?
<Eris> Brigid *nod*
<Llyren> certainly this is true. but in an extreme case, or one in which you have 
no resources, it would be perfectly justified.  I would also have to consider 
which method would be more effective
> OG if we move down that line.....when we heal the body of a virus are we not 
killing????
<OYA> exactly Brigid
<ctrymouse> who came up with the Rede, anyway? is it recent?
<Dara-w> oldG:  dif from binding?
<Loralei> if non-action does more harm than hexing, then you go against the read
<Xina> OG: there is a dianic group that has a really effective way to shrink the 
penis of rapist,,,is that a hex?
<OldGerald> Brigid: Ok, how about hexing him to break a leg, or to make his 
power hand go limp? It's all the same....
<OldGerald> mma Xina!!!
<aestra> Xina *LOL*
<SSeraphin> Brig well not all are of the Wiccan rede here I believe..but 
regardless it can be done I think!!
<OldGerald> Or hexing an assin to go blind in his shooting eye?
> brigid i do not follow the wiccan red to the letter i follow the law of karma
<Brigid> How about slamming your palm into his nose and screaming bloody 
murder, OG?
<OldGerald> Xina: yes, and a darn good one!
<Loralei> og: hexing him to have him caught by the authorites(mundane) would be 
more appropriste i think
*** Parts: cybrfarer (~sdadams@ix-no3-21.ix.netcom.com)
<Xina> Brigid: provided he doenst have a knife or a gun
<Dara-w> Brigid: I personally spell the authorities to find the rapist and that truth 
will come through
<OldGerald> mma cybr!
<Xina> OG: yes and should be used more often..imagine the effect on the prison 
system
<Brigid> it still doesn't hurt to scream, Xina.
*** Joins: _Strider (~forrj000@res-031.res.unbc.edu)
* SSeraphin sighs and looks at the clock...must call my kids..I will be back in an 
hour will this still be ongoing??
<Xina> Brigid: well in some cases, it is ineffectual
<OldGerald> mma strider!
<Xina> Brigid: such as my own...
<OldGerald> SSer: perhaps...
<Llyren> why must we diferentient. harm through mystical or physical means will 
weigh on our soul with the same impact.
<Brigid> I think that what we've gotten into is situational ethics...
> loralie i disagree, the prison system does not punish properly
<ctrymouse> Llyren: agreed
<Grynner> Brigid, If Someone killed my cat of raped/killed a freind/girlfreind of 
mine, I'd much rather face the Karmic vice the Legal consequences for my 
Retribution
*** SpiderWlf is now known as wascal
<wascal> spideys taking a break.. shes tired
<Llyren> the prison system is too soft to teach lessons
<wascal> shes still here.. just handin over the keys
<Xina> Llyren: when I stand in the hall of Double Ma'at, my heart will pass in the 
balance, of that I am certain
<Loralei> good point brm, but he still needs to be behind bars
<SSeraphin> Its hard to leave but I must adue peeples!!
<Xina> mp sseraphin
<Brylie> mp SSeraphin
<Loralei> mp sser
<OldGerald> Lor: So hex a rapist to..."reap"....his karma *behind* bars....if you 
get my drift.....
> there was a woman on #wicca whose to little girls were raped the guy got 15 
months is that what you call sufficiant punnishment?
<OldGerald> mp, mma SSer!
<wascal> i think one problem we have in this discussion is a mix up of "craft" 
ethics and plain ol mundane "ethics"
* ctrymouse knows she cannot undo stuff that wouldn't pass muster with Ma'at ... 
so...
<Grynner> MP SSer
<Loralei> lol, oldg, iam sure that would happen
<SSeraphin> bye fe rnow!!
*** Parts: SSeraphin (~aguy@dial197175.wbm.ca)
<Brigid> Which basically, OG, is "May the Lady grant you all that you 
deserve..."
<Dara-w> Xina:  just a thought,.. not trying to read into your case,... perhaps your 
case happened because of some lesson in this incarnation that you are to learn
<Xina> What about marital rape, when the system lets them do what they like and 
no one will help, not even those in power to help
<Dara-w> mp SSeraphin
<Grynner> Wascal, You mean Craft Ethics With Religious Morals?????
<tragik> ok here's my thinking:  protction, by hex or otherwise is fine, in fact, i 
would encourage it..  hexing, for the sake of being made at someone for doing 
something, is going against everything that we claim to stand for.  as long as 
good is brought out of
<ctrymouse> Dara: that sounds...cruel
<wascal> the rapist/whatever arguement couldbe approached two ways.. as self 
defense, or defense of another.. or as after the fact revenge
<tragik> , do as you fee right
<wascal> grynner i mean "magickal": vengence/defense vs the old fashioned kind
* Dara-w was molested/raped for 10 yrs,..
<Xina> Dara: I got the shit beat out of me 50 yards from a US marine guard 
shack, they heard me scream and did NOTHING
<OldGerald> Brigid: My FAVOURITE curse is: "I Wish you on yourself!"
<ctrymouse> eep sorry Dara
<Brigid> In this case, what's deserved is a prison term in a cell with a big guy 
called Bubba who wants to call you "wifey"...
> dara explaine that to a 5 yr old girl that she had some lessons to learn
<wascal> hypothetically if ye be able, whats the diff tween a hex and a good old 
fashioned punch inna nose?
<Xina> I never cursed him then even tho I could have
<OYA> that is why we must choose each moment our own motivations. 
* wascal finds the latter more effective in many a situation
<Llyren> wascal: agreed
<Xina> Dara: then you should be more empathetic
<Eris> brm: nod
<Brigid> I like that.
<Xina> Brigid: good solution!
<ctrymouse> wascal: if you are small and can't do physical stuff, magickal stuff 
helps
<Loralei> here wifey wifey wifey
<Grynner> Wascal, a fine and Police Record, and maybe a hefty Lawsuit
*** Joins: Zelene (zelene@rockford.com)
<wascal> mouse.. quite possibly true
<Loralei> mm zrelene
<Dara-w> brm:  that is for her to see,.. perhaps means perhaps not as well,... I 
know now why I had those lessons to learn,.. if you haven't walked in my 
shoes,.. please don't judge me
<Llyren> mm
<Zelene> Hello!
<Brigid> Brmy....I think Dara just told you that she's done that...
<wascal> but then.. ethically whats the diff.. are we debating the ethics of magick 
or the ethics of self defense/vengance?
> ahhh]
*** Joins: astyanax (bishop1@village.ios.com)
> why do you always think i am judging you?
<Xina> Brm: what about the ethics of giving and keeping one's word
<OldGerald> Xina: you could have hexed the marines to be caught sleeping on the 
job....
> i have stated before, i do not judge anyone
<wascal> to each his/her own method 
<Xina> OG: they told me it was none of their business so they didnt get involved
<OldGerald> mm Zelene...
<Xina> OG: heheh but I see your point
<Dara-w> Xina:  then you have politics over moral responsibility
<Llyren> i believe that any magic cast in anger is a gross abuse of a trust that the 
goddess has put in us.
<Brigid> Isn't that off topic, Brm?
<Xina> Dara: true...and patrichal BS of the military too
> brigid i have no clue
<wascal> oldg.. karma works for everyone regardlessof anyone elses wishes
<tragik> bed time.  mp everyone!
*** Quits: tragik (tragik)
<ctrymouse> mp tragik
<Grynner> Xina, I must say this, If the Marines had helped you, They would have 
been derelict for leaving their post, tho they could have legaly shot the bastards 
from their posts...
<astyanax> bye tragik
<Loralei> agreed, llyren, but that goes for punches in the nose too :)
<Xina> Grynner: yeah
<wascal> our hypothetical marines are already cursed with being who they are.. 
and if, IF they have a cnosience they will feel like shit for doing nothing
> Lylren what the goddesses trusts us to do is grow and learn even in our 
mistakes
<Dara-w> Xina:  yes,..know those military bs well
* Xina needs to go...
<Brigid> Agreed, Wascal.
<Brylie> mp Xina, mma.
<wascal> and regardless of that.. if they areno-good shits (to quote Vonnegut) 
their life will reflect it no matter who seeks venganceon them
<Dara-w> mp Xina
<Loralei> mp xina
*** Quits: OldGerald (Ping timeout for OldGerald[akr-oh1-14.ix.netcom.com])
<Llyren> we are bound by a set of morals that true
<Llyren> lsdjfs
*** Joins: bige (~randye@jcslip3.tfsksu.net)
*** Parts: bige (~randye@jcslip3.tfsksu.net)
<Loralei> mm bige
<Grynner> MP Xina!!!
<ctrymouse> mp Xina
<OYA> bound by whose morals?
<Xina> mp everyone
<OYA> =-----------------------------------------
<Dara-w> must go,... mp all and brightest blessings
<SlvrSplsh> MP All, gotta go to bed. Early day tomorrow
*** Quits: Xina (Leaving)
<ctrymouse> mp Dara
<wascal> latas
<Brylie> mp Dara, mma
<Loralei> mp dara
<OYA> mp everyone leaving
<Grynner> Llyren, no we are not bound by Morals, unless we carry them over 
from our days prior to the craft
<Loralei> mp splash
*** Parts: Dara-w (~mildfedc@205.241.144.24)
<Brigid> One of the things that attracted me to Wicca in the first place (besides 
the fact that women are NOT  second class citizens...) was the responsibility of 
the individual to consider his actions and their ethical repercussions.
*** Parts: SlvrSplsh (hammack@wmn1-142.usa1.com)
<Llyren> we are bound, mostly by choice, by morals that do not apply to those that 
do not practice. an they are bound by other morals that do not apply to the 
aspect of magical ability and its use or abuse
<ctrymouse> Grynner: that was something that was bothering me today: if I want 
to be all hung up about things, I could've staying in Xtianity
* Brylie nods in agreement with Brigid
<ctrymouse> er stayed
<Loralei> true brigid
<wascal> theonly "morals" are personal morals.. there is.. or at least damn well 
shouldnt be any etched in stone set of morals.. for society or for spirituality
<OYA> we are bound entirely by choice
<Brigid> I believe in the Rede as a lifestyle choice...
<OYA> each moment we chose
<wascal> brig.. right on
*** Joins: MaMaMagic (~twhitley@slipper2b.xtalwind.net)
* Loralei is busy nodding
<Llyren> so that truly, to argue that the lack of the ability of society to give us an 
out that magic does is reason to use magic for that purpose is not necessarily the 
case
* Brylie grins
<wascal> no one on a throne is gonna smack peole with the karmic hammer for 
not doing whats "right"
<OYA> heheheeh right on wascal
<Brigid> And, although this may not be a particularly popular viewpoint, I regard 
Magick of secondary importance to the lifestyle/religious aspects.
<ctrymouse> Brigid: isn't it all tied together?
<Llyren> brigid: i agree
<Brigid> No, it's not....
<astyanax> sorry to leave so sudden everyone, but this is my first night on a irc 
and i have no clue what commands are...mp everybody
<wascal> karma isnt a rulebook of if you do Bad Thing A.. you will get 
Punishment B
<Brylie> mp asty, mma :)
<Brigid> There are some people with great magickal ability who come to the 
Craft...and that's fine because that's what they are there for...
<Grynner> morals are the guidelines set by a society based on their overall beleif 
in what is good and Bad. Last I looked, there was nothing like that for the 
Craft
<Loralei> brigid, yes, one should live/breathe/eat the Rede first, but the rest ghas a 
way of blending in too
*** Quits: astyanax (Leaving)
<Brigid> There are other people who are not as gifted...
<wascal> "vigilante witchcraft" is not what its about
*** Joins: OldGerald (mysitck@akr-oh1-14.ix.netcom.com)
<OldGerald> mma all!
<Loralei> mma oldg
<ctrymouse> re's OG  :)
<OYA> we each create our own set of value judgements and moral foundations, 
which are founded in nothing.
<Brigid> I agree, Wascal.
<OldGerald> damn server!
<wascal> no one here has the right to decide that someone else did "wrong" and 
needs a "psychic spanking"
<ctrymouse> wascal: well said  :)
<Llyren> our personal morals are dependent upon our own balance of 
positive/negetive  good/evil  and when it comes down to it , the goddess wills us 
to be who we are and follow our particular path.
* wascal bows
<OldGerald> wascal: what should we do, then? "Turn the other cheek"?
<wascal> fuck no
-> *scire* are you coming to the #pathweaving
<OYA> oooh ooooh I want one!!
<ctrymouse> ;D
<Loralei> wascal, to play devil's advocate(no pun intended) isn't vigilante 
witchcraft as in a binding spell necessary sometimed to protect those who have 
no other means to prtect themselves?
<Brigid> brb...poop lurk.
<Grynner> llyren, in my book thats the definition for Ethics
<Grynner> not Morals
* wascal believes all "ethics" are situational
<Llyren> what is the difference?
<OldGerald> to give up on hexing is to turn the other cheek perpetually....do not 
"live by the sword", either, but be prepared to act if the time comes....
<wascal> no set response to any given action.. thatmakes us no better than 
machines.. or christians
<ctrymouse> ::shiver::
<wascal> live by the shield
<wascal> grin and bear it.. life goes on.. they'll get theirs
<OldGerald> live by the shield.....with a scourge, if nessisary....
<Loralei> and use the shield to block blows and hit when necessary in defense?
<Llyren> what comes around goes around
*** Quits: Awo (ann-arbor-r.mi.us.undernet.org montreal.qu.ca.undernet.org)
<wascal> if you feel a need to "push it along" fine.. but lets not get carried away 
anc react with trite measures
<Grynner> llyren, wheather the Definitions of right and wrong are detemined by 
the individual, or by the group for the individual
<Loralei> but do we have the right or responsibiklity to point them out to the gods 
of old or to invoke the karma oursleves?
<OYA> wascal, sometimes that is a fine enough atttitude to have, but there are 
other times that may call for decided action.
<wascal> and if there need be a fight.. let it be a fight.. dont stab someone in the 
back after the fact
*** Joins: HawkWind (~aquinas@net-1-155.austin.eden.com)
> loralei i think that's a personal chioce
<OldGerald> Wascal: Hexing is something I do rarely, and with great sorrow....it's 
like "Oh, why have you done this? Why must you force me to action"....
<OldGerald> mm Hawk!
* HawkWind aka Hawk Windwalker bows to one and all as he bids a good 
morrow to you.
> mm hawk
<wascal> deal with the situation. vengance is pointless.. defense on the other hand 
i personally utilize with a good bit of offense as well
<Loralei> mm hawk
<Grynner> Loralei, if it involves something major with regards to my friends or 
family, I will make that choice, and I will accept whatevver karma I might 
harvest
<wascal> if your familiar with the martial art of Aikido.. and the taoiost principle 
of Wu Wei...
<Llyren> life is like a box of chocolates.....
> i think the question is are you responsible enough to greet and be aware of the 
karma
<OldGerald> For the worst ones, I invoke the Morrigan.....and let HER 
decide......}:->
<wascal> use your "enemies" force against them by not using it at all.. effortless 
existance.. you cant hurt what you cant hit
<ctrymouse> eep OG
<HawkWind> mm OldGerald, brmhilda, & Loraleii
<wascal> etc etc cliche city.. "be like water daniel-san"
*** Joins: Otter (~suzi@host49.cyberg8t.com)
<Loralei> agrred, brm,wascal
<Zelene> What sort of circumstances force someone to action...(hex)?
<OldGerald> mm otter!
<Otter> mm OG!
<OldGerald> Zelene: Threaten someone I love, and do not back down when I ask 
you to....
<Loralei> hareming of a child, zelene,...
<OYA> It is always a grave consideration to set a hex.
<wascal> "hexing" isnt action.. its RE-action
<Zelene> Why not just do a protection spell on the one you love?
<OldGerald> I will ALWAYS give someone the chance to walk away......
<OYA> disagree wascal
> i don't think there is a way to harm none, just do the best you can and accept it 
:)
<Brigid> bak....and please...after what I've just been through, let's not mention 
chocolate.
<wascal> 'and when you RE-act, that means someone else is in control'
<Zelene> or a protection spell upon the child
<ctrymouse> brmhilda: agree
<Llyren> chocolate
<OYA> it may be a call to action, but it must be a consciouse choice to act in a 
specific manner
<wascal> play your own cards.. dont try and play someone elses game cause you 
feel like you need to win
<Loralei> brm, harm the least and protect the rest?
<wascal> but its still playing someone elses game oya
<Otter> Hmmm... I have never cursed (hexed) anyone, but I reserve the right to 
do so..
> loralei that is the way i live :), but i have made exceptions
<OldGerald> "An it harm none..." sounds good, doesn't it? But, unfortunately, like 
all other catch-phrases, it usually falls short of a given situation.......
<wascal> its admitting that you are too weak to stand on your own.. its stooping to 
their level
<Zelene> It just seems that instead of doing something negative..there is always 
something positive that you can choose to do instead.
<Grynner> I look at it this way,   Would I want someone to do this act to me if I 
did what they did?????
<Zelene> for the same purpose
<wascal> OG very true
<Loralei> it is a topic of much debate at our house
<wascal> and on thatnote.. what exactly is the definition of "harm"???
<Grynner> OR would I like/allow someone to do the same to me?
<wascal> does to harm mean to break a bone, or to hurt their feelings?
<Loralei> zelene, hexing a rapist to get caught and get paybacks in prison IS 
positive
> loralie, so can you see from that that one must know how to destroy in order to 
heal
<wascal> its impossible to go through life withour harming someone sometimes
<Brigid> One of the things that was hammered into me what that any manipulation 
of another person is WRONG...HARM.
<OldGerald> The Goddess distroys, the Goddess creates....as above, so 
below.....
*** Joins: talisman (~ask@dmn1-65.usa1.com)
<wascal> it is silly fluffy bunny (no offense to bunnies of course) to think 
otherwise
<OldGerald> mm talisman!
<Otter> OldGerald: The wiccan rede *does* allow hexing, if you use the archaic 
interpretation ("an" meaning "if")
*** Parts: talisman (~ask@dmn1-65.usa1.com)
<ctrymouse> Brigid: people manipulate all the time on mundane levels...to get jobs, 
etc.
<Loralei> learning it, brm, learning it
<Brigid> Especially, Wascal, in the term "none" is so inclusive.
<Brigid> Does that make it right, Mouse?
<wascal> we, when doing magick are working with energy and probability
<ctrymouse> no...but are we trying to be perfect, like the Xtians? or just do the 
best we can?
> loralie my poiny being we cause harm , when we give antibiotics we are killing 
life to perserve ours
<wascal> theres nothing wrong with manipulating the odds.. face it.. the House 
has the favor 
<HawkWind> lor: is it? .. hexing some one to recieve more of wat ihe/she already 
had that put him/her into the position of raping/molesting/robbing/killing would 
show nothing but the life style that he/she is living is RIGHT!
<Brigid> We are, IMHO, trying to become the best that we can...
<Zelene> Vindictiveness just isn't a part of me..I still think that I could think of 
something positive to do rather than hexing the rapist (sorry for the line noise)
<OldGerald> to TRULY command the powers of nature, we must be able to 
command....if not always use....ALL the powers of nature.....including the 
renewing energies of destruction.....
<OYA> excuse me.... be back shortly
<wascal> we have no power over another Will
<wascal> we can influence.. but we cant control.. sorry to shatter anyones 
illusions of the opposite
<ctrymouse> wascal: that's what I read about spells
<wascal> we can only control.. and thus "harm" in that definition , ourselves
<HawkWind> OldGerald: so u r saying that u have the wisdom of a GOD??
<Brigid> I still like Dion Fortune's definition of magick.
<Otter> HawkWind: at the risk of sounding trite;  Thou art God/dess
<OldGerald> Hawk: We are all Gods...in training. 
<ctrymouse> and so when I said manipulate, I meant influence...it's done by 
everyone all the time
<Loralei> hawkwind, just reiterrating previous example, but i feel it is ok for the 
gods of old to dish out karma as they see fit
<Brigid> "Magick is the ability to change consciousness at will."
<Brylie> HawkWind: we're all gods/goddesses in a way.
<wascal> brig.. add to that.. ones own
<OldGerald> Brigid: an oldie but a goodie...
<Grynner> HawkWind, We all do, for what is wisdom other than the lessons of 
past mistakes
<Grynner> Whether those mistakes are our own or others
<Loralei> agreed gfynner
<Brigid> (I've told y'all, I know a little about a lot.)
<Brigid> (still working on humility....)
<Otter> For me, magick is the art of finding or creating, connections between 
seemingly unconnected things...
<Grynner> Magick is the ability to Shape Reality by force of Will
<OldGerald> Brigid: I like Dion's book "Sane Occultism"...it talks of ethics....
<Brigid> How different is shaping reality from changing consciousness.
* Zelene nod brigid
<ctrymouse> whose consciousness? our own?
<Brigid> it's semantics...
<Llyren> welll, its been fun.mp all
<OldGerald> conciousness IS reality...
<Brylie> mp Llyren, mma
<HawkWind> oldgerald: correct in TRAINING
<wascal> reality is based on consciousness..via perception
<OldGerald> mp, mma Llyren!
<Loralei> changing conciousness is changing your mental perception, changing 
reality affects the physical world
<wascal> magick is altering your own perception of reality
<Brigid> Well, sugar....let me ask you something...when is the last time you were 
able to look through someone else's eyes?
<wascal> because face it.. whos reality is it anyway?
*** Parts: Llyren (~lfd102@clrc_pc9.aa.psu.edu)
* ctrymouse is getting confused now
<wascal> we can alter our own.. but no one elses
<OldGerald> Hawk: And knowing when TO and when NOT to wield those 
powers.....well, it is a lesson we all must learn...
<wascal> not without communication 
<Zelene> a change in your consciousness can help you to bring about a change in 
your reality.
<Brigid> I have my own personal reality...and no one is able to share it with me 
because there is no one else living in here with me...
<Grynner> Yes, changing conciousness while performing physical healing would 
not bring about the healing
<Grynner> changing reality would
<OYA> back, and trying to catch up with where we are now.
<wascal> then agasin there is always colective unconscious
<HawkWind> Brylie: i know we are ... but we have not recognized the FULL 
god/dess potention with in ourselves ... else why r we here? <-- curious and 
serious question
> brigid *smile* i understand that
<wascal> but theres only so much one can put into that
<Brigid> IF you change consciousness, you can, within that perception, find and 
work with the energy lines and flows that identify illness/disability and focus 
healing.
* Brylie grins at HawkWind - don't ask me why we're here cuz I dare not pretend 
to have the slightest clue yet
<Loralei> afk - putting baby down
<wascal> thou i think we are getting away from ethics and into theory
<OldGerald> why are we here.....to eat, of course...;)
<wascal> another topic altogether i thinks
<Brigid> Ethics and theory tend to walk hand in hand.
* Brylie giggles at OG
> brigid agreed
* OldGerald would like to open a can of worms....................................
<ctrymouse> eeep worms!
<wascal> eeeew worms
<Grynner> go for it OG
<wascal> none for me thanx, im on a diet
<Brigid> Ethics only matter if they are applied.
<ctrymouse> LOL!
<Grynner> throw 'em to the fisheys
<OldGerald> "Magickal/Herbal Abortions...where do you stand?"
<HawkWind> oldgerald: i understand that with power comes responsibility ... i'm 
just wondering where 'turn the other cheeck' (sorry bout using a xian phrase) 
and retribution should take place ... *shrug* 
<ctrymouse> OG: on one's self?
<wascal> OG i dont stand on people who are having abortions.. it would hurt 
them
* Brylie grins
* OldGerald groans at bhis sarcastic karma coming back at him....
<ctrymouse> if a person were to have one, I think it would be better in a medical 
environment
<Brigid> I think that's more appropos to a discussion on karmic choices, OG.
<wascal> dats what im hewre for
<Loralei> oh oldG, you had to.....
> again i don't see the difference in that than what w have been discussing , 
abortion is up to the person , you cannot escape krma no matter what
<OldGerald> Brigid: But what of the ethics as a herbal healer?
<wascal> its up to what risk the woman wants to take whether they try it 
themselves or go to a doc
<OldGerald> shall they use their abilities to harm one, to help another?
<wascal> either way they have the right to do as they will
<HawkWind> oldgerald: do u really want to start that one ... <BEG>
<Otter> OG: where I stand on herbal abortions... I don't like 'em.. I'm not an 
herbalist enough to know of *any* herb that is potent enough to abort, without 
also being potent enough to probably kill the woman...
<ctrymouse> oh: *I* wouldn't help with an abortion! I don't have the expertise!
<OYA> this conversation is going all over the place now.
<Brigid> That's IF you're debating the ethics....
<Brigid> You have to remember the karmic choice of the fetus, too.
<OldGerald> Otter: Try pennyroyal tea...
<wascal> closest i could come to helping with an abortion would be to beatup a 
pro-lifer in front of the clinic
<OldGerald> wascal: YES!!!!!
> well.....i have made a choice not to, but i do not judge others for doing so
<Loralei> as a future midwife, i will help with herbal abortions, but only after all 
other possible options have been explored (i.e. progrsams to help mother afforrd 
child, adoptions, counseling pre-and pot abortion
<wascal> pennyroyal is very dangerous.. Rue is better
<wascal> but anyway.. thats a medical descision
<Brigid> Pennyroyal tea is still iffy, OG.
<Otter> The abortifactant dose of pennyroyal is close to the lethal dose.. I'm not 
that good
<Loralei> otter: pennyroyal does not work, personal exprerience
<wascal> amen otter
<Brigid> it's better for fleas.
* aestra will be back later... mp, mma, blessed be!
<OldGerald> Lor: I know of one herbalist who used it on herself...and it 
worked...
<Brylie> mp aestra, mma!
<wascal> always be safe and careful in anything you doi.. but thats not ethical.. 
thats common sense
> loralei that's still a tuffy for me
<Loralei> did not work for me, and i thank my lucky stars every day !!!!!!! :)
*** Parts: aestra (slanier@dial1.radiks.net)
<wascal> now it is unethical to reccomand what you havent tried yourself and 
dont understand
<Brigid> Like I said, better for fleas...they HATE the stuff.
<wascal> always better to consult an expert.. so 49% oif the population already 
are excluded
* OYA has been through two abortions.
<Brigid> Wascal? Agweed.
<Otter> Brigid... yes, fleas hate it!
<OldGerald> Brigid: But what would the fluffybunnies say, all those poor fleas??? 
;)
<ctrymouse> geez
<Loralei> it is a woman's choice, but it is one not to be taken lightly. i know i don't, 
and it is reassuring to know that you are concerned about that too
<Brigid> well, if the cat could ask the Lady to give those fleas what they 
deserve....
* Eris holds up a sign "SAVE THE FLEAS"
<ctrymouse> I guess I'm gonna get it in some karmic afterlife for killing roaches? 
eep
<wascal> hail eris
* OldGerald is gonna PAY for all those earwigs......
<Brigid> Not in my book, Ctry....I dont' count roaches as a life form.
* Brylie giggles at ctrymouse - gawd I hope not ;)
<ctrymouse> ::shiver::
> yep sorry it all counts :)
<wascal> 'an it harm none, unless they are icky, do as thou wilt"
<Loralei> rofl, wascal
<ctrymouse> LOL!
<HawkWind> Brigid: ah .. but r u the one who's counting ... ;)
<Eris> lol
<OldGerald> hehehehehehehe.......................
<wascal> ethics in a nutshell... class dismissed
* wascal giggles
<Brigid> You CAN communicate with ants...you CAN communicate with 
flies...but Roaches?  nothing but an eating-breeding machine.
<Otter> hehehe
> hahaha wascal
<Loralei> do spouses ex-wife count as ickky?
<Brigid> No, just evil.
<Grynner> How do you comunicate with flys???????
<Otter> Brigid!  I make deals with my ants, too!  "You don't go here, and I won't 
kill... You stay there, and you're safe"
<wascal> if ya wanna get to fleas put lots of weird stuff in your bloodstream for 
em
<Brigid> Except for my ex-husband's other ex-wife....
> so how does judging come into ethics????
<OldGerald> HERE'S a better topic......"The Ethics of Publishing....does the 
Pagan community's need for info excuse divulging secrets???????????????????
????????????????????????????"
<HawkWind> do ex-wives count as icky>??
<wascal> in the words of some lesser godling 'judge not.. etc etc"
<ctrymouse> OG: I would hate to have to join a coven to learn things
<OldGerald> I mean, I know Gardnerians who are STILL pissed.....
<Loralei> i try to let the judging be left up to the Old Ones
<wascal> ctry ya dont have to join a coven to learn things
<Brigid> Same as you communicate with ants, Grynner...
<Grynner> and that is??????
<ctrymouse> wascal: I was answering OG
<Otter> I know that it's unpopular, but I practice situational ethics, and that means 
I *have* to judge... (Of course, I'm wrong sometimes, but that is the price I pay 
for responsability and self determination)
<wascal> yer learning things right now arent ya.. and every day 
<wascal> okiedoke
<Brigid> My ex-husband was abusive, a druggie, and a compulsive spender...
<Brigid> Wife #two took him to the cleaners....and beat him up several times.
> ahhh yes then ethics are only personal and should stay that way , who are we to 
decide what is good for one and not the other
<HawkWind> oldgerald: is there any need for the secrets to be secret?
<wascal> datds karma
* Grynner finds and, flies and Roaches equally assinine and deaf and dumb
<OldGerald> ctry: But what of initiation oaths? Shouldn't those who take them 
honour them?
<wascal> and ya didnt have to life a finger to make it happen did ya brig
<Loralei> hawkwind, in the wrong hands, the info can be dangerous
<ctrymouse> OG: I don't know...I only know I am glad to have access to 
information
<OldGerald> Hawk: I think people should take initiation oaths seriously...
<Otter> brmhilda... part of a society's job (IMO) is to find a "lowest common 
demoninator" for personal ethics
*** Joins: MoonSaber (~Rama777@205.164.176.150)
<OldGerald> mm Moon!
<OYA> excuse me all.....
<Brylie> mm MoonSaber
<MoonSaber> whoa... alot of people in here :) mm all :)
<Loralei> otter, and the lowest common denominator become that society's 
morals
* OYA bows low as she departs...
<Loralei> mm moonsaber
<OldGerald> mp, mma OYA!
*** Parts: OYA (~not@sifi.mindspring.com)
<Loralei> mp oya
<Brigid> No, I didn't do a thing, Wascal...he had it coming.
<Brigid> AND when he's not paying his childsupport, he doesn't seem to be able 
to hold a job...
<Grynner> Old G, an Oath is an Oath, and should be honored unquestioningly, 
unless there is danger to someone in not revealing it
<MoonSaber> is this the room where the serious discussions are?
<Otter> Loralei: yep, and then we complain about it, <grin>
<HawkWind> otter: i like that responce about situational ethics ... i bow to ur 
wisdom .. :)
<Loralei> lol, otter
<Loralei> yes, moon
<OldGerald> Grynner: Exactly.....however, some are So hungry for a book deal, 
that.....
<OldGerald> they forget..
<Otter> HawkWind... are you funnin me? <grin>
> again OG that brings us to personal ehtics and yes honnor i don't like the idea of 
secrets getting out but there has come some good of it
<HawkWind> oldgerald: i'd say that would fall under otter's 'situational ethics' ... 
*shrug*
<ctrymouse> ::sigh:: if everyone had honoured oaths, I guess I would still be an 
unhappy Xtian
<OldGerald> Grynner: I think Alex Sanders paid dearly for what he let slip.......
<Grynner> A man can truly be judged by just two things: His Honor and his 
Word
<MoonSaber> sounds like a bad western...
<Otter> OG:  not *all* the Gardnerian stuff has been published...
<OldGerald> brm: yes, but it should stop now....no-one needs anyone else's 
secrets anymore.....they have more than enough material to use if they 
wish........
> OG i do agree
<OldGerald> Otter: Yes, but some are nervous about *that* coming out too....
<ctrymouse> OG: I agree with your last statement  :)
<wascal> well kids.. its been surreal.. time for all good wabbits to hop off to 
dreamland
<Loralei> but what if one cannot find a teacher? (let me guess: then you are 
supposed to figure it out on your own?)
<Otter> mp wascal...
<ctrymouse> nighties, wascal  :)
<Brylie> mp wascal
<OldGerald> MY trad has been exempt from the secrets leak....and we're 
happy....
<MoonSaber> mp wascal..
<Loralei> mp wascal
> OG i think ones word and honnor is all they have
<wascal> we now return you to your regularly scheduled spiderwlf.. already in 
progress
<OldGerald> Lor: No, use the 10,000 books already on the market....
<HawkWind> otter: i dont think so ... like u said ... we all have the responsibility to 
take care of ourselves and no one should judge us (unless they are a jury ;)
<wascal> or something like that.. toodles
<Eris> mp,mma all
*** Parts: Eris (~willow1@dialup239.iserv.net)
<Loralei> but 9,990 are fluffy bunny stuff!
*** wascal is now known as SpiderWlf
<SpiderWlf> mma, all, *sleepy smile*
<OldGerald> Lor: but those 10 are filled with good stuff.....
> mma spidey
<MoonSaber> spider was that your SO?
<OldGerald> Spidey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<Loralei> and when you thirst for more.....?
<SpiderWlf> moon, *nod*
<OldGerald> Lor: Find a teacher.....or ask the moon for HER secrets......
<SpiderWlf> he's learning irc dictation =)
> loralei, then that's when i feel you should seek out a teacher like we are doing 
now :) all with each other
<Otter> Loralei... I hate to sound "more pagan than thou" but learning comes from 
within, as well as without
* OldGerald 's trad is intact.....for the most part....
> otter yes it does
<MoonSaber> I tried asking the moon for her secrets... then she whiped out the 
sabers...
<OldGerald> Moon: bloody suprising secret, eh?
> of course i am a tradtionalist so, that's my standpoint
<OldGerald> Brm: Ah, my lone trad companion on the net.....;)
> hahahaha
<ctrymouse> I'll say one thing: if things had been published earlier on, I wouldn't 
feel like I have less time to learn...
<Grynner> as much as I luv y'all, I really dunt like the bigtime traditionalists....>;}
* OldGerald sometimes feels lost in eclecticville.....;)
<ctrymouse> I wish I had been wiccan at a much younger age
> that does not mean i do not study everything i can get my hands on and see them 
as all valid but i like keeping trads togethert
<Otter> OG:  that brings me to a request?  What trads do we have represented 
here?  Or was that covered before I came? <grin>
<Loralei> otter, im know, and i do look within, but when you are researching really 
heabvy stuff like the quabballah....
*** Quits: Zelene (Read error to Zelene[rockford.com]: EOF from client)
<OldGerald> brm: exactly....by keeping trads together, people have more of a real 
choice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<OldGerald> Otter: I am American Celtic Wicca
<HawkWind> oldgerald: but finding a teacher for some is a difficult if not near 
impossible task ... wat of them ... they can only learn so much from within 
wothout the out ... -er- i think ... di i say that right ... *shrug*
<MoonSaber> don't you all wish you can go back in time with what you know 
now, and try to remake your life to what it could have been?....droll
<ctrymouse> <--just an eclectic kitchen witch
> otter i am a tradional celtic but also a gardenarian preistess
* Brylie smiles at MoonSaber - sometimes, but I figure it'd be so boring that way 
:)
<OldGerald> Hawk: well, they could always go to the Gardnerian stuff *already* 
out.....no need for fresh leaks of secrets...
<Grynner> Moonsaber, in a word: HELL NO!!!!  I've learned too much, and had 
too much fun!
<Otter> Loralei:  out here a Jewish center is teaching quabballah to anyone that 
requests it!  (happy grin)
> OG not true there are still some more secrets
<OldGerald> Brm: Sometime, on #wicca, remind me to share my personal theory 
about Gerald and the origins of the Craft....
> oh OG i know what mine are :)
<Loralei> <== similar to gardnerian with a leaning towards Dianic and a little 
Native American to boot
<OldGerald> Brm: yes, there are still secrets....and those MUST be protected...
<Loralei> otter, your are sdo luckyy!!!
<MoonSaber> have you noticed that everything we say or do, in someway 
influence another persons life? and he in turn another? like a web of life, we are 
all interconnected.
<OldGerald> Otter: Lucky bastard!
> OG power shared is power lost
<ctrymouse> MoonSaber: have you ever read the novel, "Infinity's Web" ??
<Otter> Loralei... Well I would be, if I were into quabballah, <grin>
<Loralei> otter :P
<MoonSaber> ctrymouse: no I haven't, whats it about?
<HawkWind> oldgerald: sorry ... wat i ment was wat would they do if the leaks 
NEVER occurred??
<OldGerald> Brm: exactly.....Witchcraft is still a mystery religion, and we need to 
kep the remaining mysteries intact....
<ctrymouse> Moon: it *is* about that total interconnectedness...it's fantasy  :)
<Loralei> brm, what is the power shared is with someone who deserves to 
know?
<MoonSaber> hmmm. a fantasy book that I have missed... gotta go correct that 
mistake...
<OldGerald> Hawk: Do what the NROOOGD did.....do their best on their 
own...and grab whatever they could, from Gardner, Leland, Murray.....
<ctrymouse> OG: mystery religions: sounds like having to join a monastery to 
learn
> loralie the charge states and the oths we take , i will share to those persons who 
are truly seeking
<HawkWind> <== too new to know ... :)
<Otter> Mystery religion... I find the mysteries in my religion are things that 
*can't* be leaked... They are things that can't be explained, but only 
experienced...
<OldGerald> ctry: No, just a certain dedication....to seperate Witches from mere 
Pagans.......
<ctrymouse> oh geez
<OldGerald> there NEEDS to be a distinction.....
> the intitiation oaths are in all the books and it's stated that we do share
<ctrymouse> why?
<MoonSaber> does ctrymouse stand for country mouse? wasn't that from a 
fantasy book?
<Brigid> Okay....IBB.
<OldGerald> ctry: Because the Craft is a flavour, a certain feeling, different from 
general Paganism, which is rightly loose.....
<ctrymouse> MoonSaber: it's from Aesop
> otter nor would anyone undersatnd it if they had not experienced the mysteries 
themselves
<Brigid> In case anyone's interested, I was initiated into Faery Faith.
<Otter> Brmhilda:  exactly!
<MoonSaber> I thought I read every one of aesops fables...
<OldGerald> Brigid: Victor Anderson's branch?
<Brigid> But I started with the Isians...
<ctrymouse> OG: I have dedicated myself to the Goddess and the God...but I 
don't like "judging" people
*** Quits: Brylie (be back in a bit!)
<MoonSaber> oh right... it was in chinese.. must have been reworded differently, 
or just didn't translate right ;)
<OldGerald> ctry: How is being a distinct group of people "judging"?
<Brigid> An off-shoot of Mark Roberts' Hyperborean Wicca, OG.
<OldGerald> Brigid: right...we've talked of this before...
<ctrymouse> OG: no disrespect...it just feels "holier than thou"
<SpiderWlf> ok, what if someone was initiated by a real idiot???
<Loralei> bri, you will have to explain it to me sometime
<Otter> SpiderWlf: hehehe  (seen some of those) <grin>
<OldGerald> ctry: No, just "different than thou"....and gloriously so...
* ctrymouse is ever-feeling not-good-enough
> well you can only hope they get it i guess spidey
<OldGerald> ctry: and thou are different from me....and good for both of us!@
<Brigid> Then one has been initiated into the Moron Tradition...and is an 
innerdiate.
> that also brings us to intiatiation ethics
*** Quits: ctrymouse (Leaving!)
<Otter> OG:  words like "mere" seem "holier than thou" to me, thou I understand 
thats not where you were heading..
<MoonSaber> mp ctrymouse
<OldGerald> Otter: I meant "general"...
<OldGerald> Brm: YES!
<Brigid> Also received an initiation as a "novice" with the Isians.
<Otter> Brmhilda... Gods.. I don't want to even *think* about initiation ethics!
> i am getting sick of how lax the standards are]
<OldGerald> Initiation without strong ethics cheapens and even de-vaules the 
ritual...
<OldGerald> Brm: We need stronger standards.....
<Loralei> agreed, oldg
> not only that the lessons involved the oaths you make, if not properly prepared 
causes problems
<OldGerald> if no one else, then at least the Trads must keep our own standards 
up!
<Grynner> Well all, I must leave now
<Grynner> MP
<SpiderWlf> oldg, i agree there, i was initiadted by a bunch of fools, and i think i 
do much much better on my own
<OldGerald> mp, mma Grynner!
<Loralei> mp grynner
<Otter> mp grynner
*** Parts: Grynner (wyckyd@206.31.121.121)
<OldGerald> Spidey: Yes, and some dole out initiations and egrees like candy....
> spidey but you were aware of what the responsibilities were
<Brigid> and some don't.
<OldGerald> er, degrees, even...
<Brigid> One of the reasons I'm still a first degree witch.
<SpiderWlf> brm, i think i taught myself responsibility..sorry..i kinda threw out 
most of what i was taught...and do my own thinking.
<OldGerald> My trad has a *definate* list of requirements for each degree...
<Otter> In our trad, people have a set list of requirements they have to meet, in 
order to get initiated.  If someone meets those, I'm not likely to with hold 
initiation
<Loralei> i was almost initiated by a fool, but he left the meeting early; i self 
dedicated in front of the coven, it was wierd, but just right
<Brigid> That and the fact that my old HPs decided she needed to start over in 
Dianic Craft...
> *nod* spidey
<OldGerald> Otter: It takes some of the guesswork out of the process....
> spidey that does not make it any less vavlid tho since the dedication is made 
between the worlds
<Brigid> So do the Isians, OG...takes about 10 years to cover...
<Otter> It also lets people know where they stand.. none of this wondering "when 
will I get initiated?  what more do I need to learn?"
<Brigid> and a day.
<SpiderWlf> brm, i agree...
<OldGerald> Otter: Mine does it for each degree, though the HPS does have 
flexibility in what exactly the requirements are....
* SpiderWlf has to relog..brb
<MoonSaber> Im not worried about when I get initiated... and life is a learning 
experience.. 
* brmhilda is going thru 2 degree now*sigh*
*** Quits: SpiderWlf (Leaving)
<Brigid> sigh...sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna find another teacher willing 
to ake me on...
<OldGerald> Brm: 2??? Like the Alexandrians used to do?
<Otter> OG:  Yes, ours too... though for 3rd, people decide for themselves...
<OldGerald> Brigid: Have you done a coven call?
<Loralei> oldg, otter, what are the requirements?
<HawkWind> OG: I understand where u are coming from ... just in my seaches 
for a teacher i have only met with kids playing adults or adults playing like they 
were kids ... i have learned more and have delved deeper on my own ... 
*shrug*
<OldGerald> Hawk: and if you DO find a good teacher, that teacher will get a 
good student! :)
> OG i have lived the lessons involved yes if that's what you mean
<Brigid> OG, I believe that when the time is right, the teacher will appear...
<Otter> Loralei:  for initiation?  (just off of the top of my head.. going to leave 
some stuff out, I'm sure) know how to cast a Circle, create spells, create and 
run rituals, read a gob wod of books... what else..
<Loralei> for the various degrees...
<Brigid> I know who it is, I believe...it's a matter of making the connections and 
the time.
<OldGerald> Otter: Our list is almost 20 titles long for first....with even more for 
second!!!!
> loralie in my tradion aside from practical knowledge  and the mysteries of those 
degrees
*** Joins: SpiderWlf (~eng4kjw@hibbs.vcu.edu)
<Otter> OG yes
<SpiderWlf> mma all..
> i have to live them
<OldGerald> Spidey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
<Brigid> Don't forget the disk of shadows!
<MoonSaber> mma spidy
<Otter> 2nd degree has healing and herbal emphasis, while 3rd has teacher/leader 
emphasis
<OldGerald> Brigid: I think people should hand copy their book....it speaks of 
dedication.....
<HawkWind> OG: why thank you milord ... I strive for the best person i can be ... 
and usually fail miserably ... but i do try ... ;)
<Loralei> bri, not familiar with disk of shdows
> 2 degree is teacher in my trad
<MoonSaber> is that like a book of shadows?
<Brigid> It's a technopagan term from the old days on Magicknet.
<OldGerald> Otter: For us, first degree is for the student....2nd is for the coven, 
while 3rd is for the Craft as a whole...
<Loralei> lol, bri!
> OG mine also
<Otter> OG: for us, initiation and 1st are given at the same time
> eeekkk not mine i was hand maiden at 1st degree
<Brigid> (kinda like the time we threatened the net with an Enochian rap 
song....boy, did we scare some folks....)
* Loralei issick of being a solitary and hopes to connect with a coven soon!!
<Otter> We say "First a priest/ess to hirself, 2nd a priest/ess to Pagans, 3rd 
Priest/ess to all who ask
<OldGerald> Brm: Me coven's handmaiden is a first...and my love, to boot! :)
> oh cool OG
* Brigid has found out there is a Celtic coven close by....and has made a 
connection to meet some of them...
* Loralei has soo much too learn!
<OldGerald> Brigid: Ah, ya can't go wrong with the Celts!!! :)
> loralei we all do :)
<Brigid> If she's your love, why boot her?
<Loralei> lol bri
> more stuff more stuff!!!!!
<Otter> OG:  that brings up the "sex with students" issue (not implying that you 
are, just that it was a segueway for me)
<OldGerald> Brigid: Oh. gee. ha. it. is. to. laugh.
<Brigid> OG...did you happen to notice the nick?
> otter i firmly disagree with sex with students
<Brigid> Why do you think I left the Isians?
<Otter> Yes, brmhilda, but why? <grin>
<Otter> Brigid?  sex?
> why because for the same reasons a college prof should not do it with their 
students
<OldGerald> Brm: Well, it can be done.....for example, my HPS was *already* in 
a relationship with her mate when he applied to the coven.....so she was making 
a student of her lover, but not a lover of her student....see?
<Brigid> Hardly.
<Otter> the "power over" situation?  or "class pet" situation?
<OldGerald> Brigid: Of course...:)
<Brigid> For some reason, the Isians do not attract the gorgeous pagan men 
practicing Celtic Craft.
<Brigid> I use the public Craft name Brigid Childe, OG...it's the name I've 
published under, as well....
> the thing is we are perfectly human and when sex/love is throewn in it adds to 
the mix of responsiblity but it's done
<OldGerald> Brigid: I am Taliesin Athor Govannon
> our lovers are still our teachers
<Loralei> brigid, didn;t know you had published!
<Brigid> NOthing major...couple of articles on the holidays and their Christian 
correscpondents for an online magazine.
<Otter> In our trad, dedicants are considered students.. The path/lesson of the 
dedicant is to find out if *this* trad is right for them.. sex would cloud that issue 
severely...
> otter yes!!!!
<OldGerald> Otter: Which trad are you?
<Loralei> very cool, bri
<Otter> OG:  Possum trad (an Anglo-Saxon based, teaching, heirarchal trad, run 
on consensus)
> however i have never been faced with being inlove with a student so i can not 
speak on that, but just sex it's out of the question
<Brigid> My husband says I have a rather terse, journalistic style, Lor....suited to 
brief informative articles...
<OldGerald> Otter: cool....my coven is the first consensus coven in this trad...
<Loralei> brigid, i will use you as my editor if i ever publish, i tend toqwards 
wordiness
<Otter> <relieved grin>  Usually when I say "heirarchal and run by consensus" 
people get way confused, <grin>
* HawkWind is suffering from a mind overload, and is going to leave before he 
has a core meltdown
<Brigid> I keep explaining to him that after as many years of college as I went 
through, I tend to write more like a term paper than anything else.
<Loralei> mp hawk
<OldGerald> Otter: I understand completely....we're the same way....
<Otter> mp HawkWind
<OldGerald> mp, mma Hawk!
*** brmhilda sets mode: +o SpiderWlf 
* HawkWind has enjoyed his time here and will come to the next class ... mp all
*** Parts: HawkWind (~aquinas@net-1-155.austin.eden.com)
<Brigid> (I have a BA, an MA and went back to pick up classes and credits to get 
a teaching credential...)
<Loralei> goof for you!
<OldGerald> goof?
<OldGerald> ;)
*** OldGerald is now known as OldGoof
<Brigid> Then I discovered that I hated teaching.
<Loralei> (it is late, and i teach again in the morn)
> i think we have released it 
<Otter> Brigid:  cool!  (when the baby gets older, I plan on going back to college, 
and finishing at least *one* of my chosen majors! <grin>)
*** OldGoof is now known as OldGerald
<Otter> hate teaching?  Too bad...
<Loralei> released what, brm?
> wow! that was a good long discussion
* OldGerald teaches....electric bass....
<Brigid> It's not the kids...it's the politics in the offices I can't stand...
<Loralei> i know, lots to mull over
> the cone of pwer we created with that discussion lor
<SpiderWlf> *nod* sorry im so quiet, work really tired me out..
<Loralei> oldG, electric fish?
<Brigid> Politics have kept me solitary for a long time..
<OldGerald> well, I gotta run to do other stuff....will be back on #wicca 
later....mp, mma all!
> mp,mma OG
* OldGerald gives out big OG hugs to all who want them.....
<Loralei> that why i am suddenly so drained?
<SpiderWlf> mp oldg, mma =)
<Otter> mp OG
* Loralei hugs OldGerald!
> yes, it's like sex :)
*** Quits: OldGerald ((ta ta all!))
* Brigid plays nuclear trout.
> hahaha i always come back to that
<Loralei> good, cause i am not getting nearly enough!
<Brigid> MM, OG.
<SpiderWlf> hahahahahahahahahahahahah
> me either
<Brigid> No.....this was NOT like sex.
<Otter> loralei... neither am I <grin>
> brigid, no????
> i love debates
<Brigid> At least, I don't think it was anything like sex....I don't really remember.
<Loralei> it was hot and passionate for a while there....but it left me wanting 
more...like sex!
<Brigid> but i'm not sweating...
> hahahahahaha
* SpiderWlf lites a smoke
<Brigid> And there's no wet spot.
> okokok just a cone of pwer then :)
<Otter> the days of sweaty sex.. I think I remember those (and that wet spot) 
<grin> to Brigid
<Loralei> lol, brigid!
Session Close: Thu Jan 25 00:05:41 1996

Session Start: Wed Jan 31 21:46:54 1996
* Logging #pathweaving to: [#pathwea.log]
*** Joins: Vswae (~vswae@mercury13.calon.com)
<Tzimon> Chaote time is entirely nonlinear.  Makes for an interesting evening.  
:=}
<wascal> usually figures out to around when just about everybody, minus a few 
and plus a few who werent expected show up
<Ravenbrth> Is the wed. night class on this channel or is it on wicca????
*** Joins: pixi (jam@dialin36.annex2.radix.net)
<wascal> right here raven
<wascal> set a spell.. take yer shoes off
<Ravenbrth> Ahhhhh, thanks, I was not for certain
<Vswae> good evenning All
<MoonSaber> I guess I will go cook some food while I wait...
<wascal> not being certain is half the battle
*** Joins: aestra (slanier@dial48.radiks.net)
<aestra> hey
*** Joins: Dara-w (~confident@205.241.144.14)
<wascal> aestra!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<Vswae> what ?
<Ravenbrth> I guess that I have won then! hah,hah,hah!
> so explian discordia to me?
* wascal tosses aestra a tye dye beanbag
* xystra hugglewuggles aestra
<wascal> keep yer pants on brm
<wascal> or dont... hmm lets take a vote on that
> oh dam
*** Joins: Loralei (~leon.carr@dol47.dol.net)
<MoonSaber> mm loralei
> lor *mwah*
<Loralei> mm all!
<Tzimon> Just as a shameless plug, BTW, you can link to the Discordian "Hodge 
Podge Transformer" from Tools of CHAOS  ;=}
*** Joins: Rainsong (~jdfix@204.227.174.237)
* Loralei hugs the channel!
* Ravenbrth flies yp to an elder tree to wait
<pixi> wascal... maybe it's more like PUT your pants on Brm!  hahaha
* xystra *huggles* Lor
<wascal> nifty site tzimon
* Loralei GOTCHA! *SMACK*
<MoonSaber> rainsong?
<wascal> just as long as spiderwlf doenst have to put a shirt on
*** Joins: Grimoire (~wussp@pm087-12.dialip.mich.net)
* wascal is quite distracted
<Rainsong> Hi there, Grimoire. Glad you dropped in.
<MoonSaber> mm rainsong, do I know you?
<Rainsong> Hello.
<wascal> mm rain
<Grimoire> nod....figured i'd give it a try
<Rainsong> No, MoonSaber, I don't think I've had the honor.
* wascal puts whoopie cushions in all the cheap seats
<wascal> make yerselves comfy
*** pixi is now known as pixi^gone
<aestra> wascal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<wascal> grim glad ya came.. tho tonite is gonna be a tad more unorthodox than 
most
*** pixi^gone is now known as pixi
*** MoonSaber is now known as Korin
<Grimoire> yea...unorthodox isn't bad...
<Tzimon> <--- passes around the gefilte mishegos
* wascal gives the 2 minute warning
<Ravenbrth> gong...gong...gong...
<wascal> 10:05 good a time as any
* Dara-w considers herself warned
* xystra wonders if she should start logging yet?
*** Joins: Minstrel (logain@matrix.eden.com)
<Rainsong> Hi there, Minstrel. Glad you dropped in.
<wascal> xy if yer brave
<Ravenbrth> better early than late! 
<Minstrel> mm rainsong
<Rainsong> MM, Minstrel.
*** Joins: Xina (Mistressof@s6026.netins.net)
<Xina> mm
<Rainsong> My apologies for the autogreet.
* wascal puts on a fez and approaches the podium
<Korin> mm minstrel
<Minstrel> mm korin
<wascal> hiya xina
<Korin> no, I guess you're not who I thought you were rainsong, I knew a lady 
with the same Nick a long time ago...
<Korin> mm xina
<Grimoire> ..........................
> hey xina
<Xina> hiya wascal
<wascal> well here goes nothing
<Rainsong> I understand that there is another Rainsong on irc.  I have not 
met,tho.
<Xina> hey Brm
<wascal> any real.. or surreal discordians in the peanut gallery feel free to heckle 
me as is your right and duty
<Ravenbrth> we promise
<Korin> I met the other rainsong about 10 years ago on Q-Link
<Tzimon> 23
<wascal> and of course interrupting with random questions, requests to go to the 
bathroom or crys of "more Spam" are strictly encouraged, as they will totally 
throw me off
> hahahahaha
<Ravenbrth> are we there yet?  :-)
<wascal> allow me to intro myself...
<wascal> i is
<wascal> ack.. scratch that.. didnt save my macro
<wascal> Episkopos wascallis wodentius, KSC, THC, SPAM Highest priest - 
James branch Cabal POEE
<wascal> head Caterer, water into Whine Society, chairbeing of the Write in your 
own name for president in 96 campaign
* Loralei whines "I wanna go to miami"
<Grimoire> .......................................................?..........
<wascal> former researcher for the Flat Earth Society (in my pineal gland i know 
its shaped liek a burrito) etc
* wascal is a discordian/taoist/shaman of the Bear totem/free-lance mystic and 
stand-up philospher
<wascal> but enough about  me.. lets talk about me
* Ravenbrth flies down to a lower tree so I can steal the fudge off of the speakers 
desk...heh,heh,heh
* Korin raises his hand
<wascal> Discordianism is basically half religion, half politickal philosophy, and 
half metaphysical mindgame
* Dara-w throws popcorn at Korin
* wascal spits a golden appleseed at Korins hand.. order is out of order bub
* Xina throws more C4 into the center of the channel
<Loralei> am i supposed to be confused?
<wascal> we dont do that parlimantary procedure bit on my beat
<wascal> Lor you got it!
<Korin> utter chaos is the philosophy?
* wascal declares Loralei POPE
* Ravenbrth snatches popcorn on the wind
<wascal> pretty much
<Loralei> hehehehe i am doomed
*** Loralei is now known as Pope
<Tzimon> Udder chaos is the breast that Discordianism offers.
*** Joins: loupGarou (slanier@dial48.radiks.net)
<Korin> I thought that was confusiousism
<aestra> There's a shortage of perfect breasts in the world... it'd be a shame to 
harm yours.
<loupGarou> There's a shortage of perfect breasts in the world... it'd be a shame 
to harm yours.
* Dara-w pouts because she was confused first!!!!
<aestra> There's a shortage of perfect breasts in the world... it'd be a shame to 
harm yours.
<loupGarou> There's a shortage of perfect breasts in the world... it'd be a shame 
to harm yours.
<aestra> There's a shortage of perfect breasts in the world... it'd be a shame to 
harm yours.
<loupGarou> There's a shortage of perfect breasts in the world... it'd be a shame 
to harm yours.
* Grimoire has an AOL NAME NOW!!!
<wascal> basically we worship, or at least kinda get into.. Eris.. greek goddess of 
confusion and discord
*** Parts: loupGarou (slanier@dial48.radiks.net)
<loupGarou> Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!
<aestra> There's a shortage of perfect breasts in the world... it'd be a shame to 
harm yours.
<aestra> Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!
<aestra> Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!
* xystra blinks.
*** Grimoire is now known as ME5334524
<wascal> and all around groovy chick
<Korin> aak
* Xina is not paying attention and there fore confused
*** Joins: rhys (rhys@also-13.ppp.hooked.net)
*** ME5334524 is now known as Grimoire
<Grimoire> :)
*** Parts: aestra (slanier@dial48.radiks.net)
*** Joins: loupGarou (slanier@dial48.radiks.net)
<Pope> Hail Eris!! All Hail DIscordia!  All bor to COnfusion!!
<wascal> oi vey
<loupGarou> Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!
*** Parts: Xina (Mistressof@s6026.netins.net)
* Dara-w still pouts,... but decides to goose wascal any way
<loupGarou> shit... sorry
*** loupGarou is now known as aestra
<wascal> out holy book.. wellprimary one.. is the Principia Discordia
*** Parts: Grimoire (~wussp@pm087-12.dialip.mich.net)
<Korin> gee you know Im a believer of order
<Ravenbrth> what about a dual pope?
<wascal> available on a web site near you
*** Parts: rhys (rhys@also-13.ppp.hooked.net)
*** Joins: Scire (~imagine@dmn1-26.usa1.com)
<Tzimon> We're all popes.
> mm scire
<xystra> mm Scire!
*** Scire is now known as PopeSicre
<wascal> exactly tzimon
* Pope picks Dara-W as Popette
*** PopeSicre is now known as PopeScire
<wascal> hail scire
<Tzimon> In fact, we're all messiahs, and thus must be placated with 
mashmallows and the rhapsodies of clacking alligators
*** Ravenbrth is now known as PopeRaven
<wascal> the basic hierarchy is as follows.. 
*** Pope is now known as Popalei
* Brmhilda has not been initiated yet :(
<wascal> 1 neophyte or legion disciple
<wascal> 2 deacon.. someone who is catching on
<wascal> 3 ordaines priest/ess/critter
* Dara-w thinks it's time for a net split
<wascal> the Omnibenevolent Poluyfather himself malaclypse the Younger.. a 
pretty cool guy as quasifictional characters go
<wascal> and 5 Popes one and all
<Korin> udder chaos, is that like a cow with a milking problem?
<PopeRaven> what comes next?? is a 4 the same as a 1??
*** Joins: DrkMother (lizzardl@ix-ind1-12.ix.netcom.com)
<PopeScire> wascal: Are you a human, and not a cabbage or something?
<wascal> accordina to the principia every man woman and child on the face of 
the earth is a bonafide pope
<Popalei> kroin, then she'd call me to help with lactation *smirk*
<DrkMother> mm all
<wascal> scire yes
<wascal> sad isnt it
<Tzimon> Nothing is the same as anything else.
*** PopeRaven is now known as Ravenpope
<wascal> sound silly?
<Tzimon> And you yourself are not the same as either yourself or someone/thing 
else which is unlike you in various ways.  
<wascal> it is.. but then again how much sillier than anything else
<Korin> if nothing is the same as anthing else, the the copy of the nothing is 
different than anything else?
*** Joins: Calimari (~squid@crl5.crl.com)
<Ravenpope> whew, glad to hear that!
<PopeScire> wascal: Absolutely!
*** PopeScire is now known as Cabbage
<Tzimon> Which, of course, is something different than what it was when it was 
more like itself.
<wascal> pretty much by embrcing the utterly absurd we obtain a unique, if kinda 
weird brand of enlightenment
*** Ravenpope is now known as Raven
* Popalei takes cabbage and makes sauerkraut
*** Joins: Elwood (~ka1ult@ka1ult.ultranet.com)
<Calimari> And then there were Squid, and the goddess belched with massive 
joy
<Korin> heisenburg uncertainty principle?
<wascal> nothing in this world is really worth taking that seriously
<wascal> korin kindasorta
<Calimari> It might have been, but I'm not sure.
<Raven> Glad to hear no report, there are too many of those in teh world... NO 
more REPORTS!!!
<Popalei> wascal, so basically life is absurd chaos, there is nothing we can do, so 
eat marshmallows and have fun?
<Korin> pauley exclusion principle?
<wascal> discordian employs elements of Zen, chaos theory, and surrealism
<Tzimon> Yes!
<Korin> the dancing wu li masters?
<wascal> popa in a nutshell
<Tzimon> Have as much fun as you can, or else you'll be Thud-bound for sure.
*** Cabbage changes topic to "And if not Enlightenment, then Pizza, love, and 
merriment!"
* aestra admires Cabbage's new topic!
<wascal> but more than that it is a statemtnt that in all things.. all teachings..all 
ideas there is something true, something false, and something meaningless
<Raven> sounds like life to me...
*** Dara-w is now known as popsecola
<Korin> sounds like taoism wascal...
<Calimari> Bravo!
<Raven> just have to dig deep enought at times..
<wascal> discordians can be wiccan, taoist, zen, shamanistic, athistic, agnostic.. 
and i guess. christian if they wanted to be.. what the hell.. stranger things have 
happened
<wascal> korin it employsd a lot of taoism but with a sense of humor
*** Parts: Elwood (~ka1ult@ka1ult.ultranet.com)
<Popalei> wacal - live by the Foma (lies) that make you happy -- Bokononism as 
it were (ref. Vonnegut, Cat's Craddle)
<Korin> have you ever seen tao acoording to piglet?
<Korin> now there was humor
<wascal> Hail saint bokonon!
<wascal> vonnegut is a saint
*** Joins: ash13 (khecht@mars.cs.cuc.edu)
<Popalei> Korin, the Te of Piglet?
* popsecola has a tail owned by piglet
*** Cabbage changes topic to "Holy Cow and Holy Chao"
* Popalei hugs wascal -- am i catching on?
<wascal> discordian saints are nominated by anyone whothinks someone outta be 
one.. living, dead, or fictional
<Korin> yeh thats it popalei
* Tzimon readies the Sacred Mao buttons, tho I will not distribute them.
*** Parts: ash13 (khecht@mars.cs.cuc.edu)
* wascal gives popa the sacred crown of Spam.. your hired babe
<Korin> although taoism is a philosophy on how one must not live...
* Popalei will perform Bokomaru with all Bokononists present!!!!
<wascal> tzimon only to the poor of the region of Thud
*** Cabbage changes topic to "Saint Margaret Hamilton!!!!!"
<Raven> more spam
<Vswae> who are the saints ?
<wascal> and discordianism if=s a philosophy on how one must not give a shit
* Popalei genuflects to accept the Crowning Glory known as SPAM!!!
<wascal> Emporor Norton 1 is one... 
<Tzimon> Discordianism isn't so much a philosophy as an aneurysm.
<wascal> tzimon has the lowdown on him..
<Korin> hmmm I guess Im a born discordian then wascal :)
*** Parts: DrkMother (lizzardl@ix-ind1-12.ix.netcom.com)
* popsecola thinks she should be one
<wascal> korin most are.. 
<Vswae> who is norton ?
<Popalei> and by being a Discordianist we tend to interfere less with other ppls 
karma? thereby enlightning ourselves?
<Korin> life sux and I don't give a shit
<wascal> hard to convert the genitcally sane.. we pass them by
<Tzimon> Emperor Norton was a fellow who lived in the 1850's-60's.  Declared
<Tzimon>          himself Emperor of America, Protector of Mexico, printed his 
own
<Tzimon>          money (which the local merchants accepted).  Totally stark mad, 
but
<Tzimon>          everyone kinda loved him for it.
<wascal> tzi.. wanna field that
> hahaha holy shit
<Korin> what about the homocidal tendencies wascal?
<Popalei> All Hail Emperor Norton!!!!
<wascal> also weird al yankovic, dr demento, monty python, wakko warner, milk 
and cheese, the tick. all saint
<Tzimon> He's buried not far from where I am now, at Woodlawn cemetery, in 
Colma, CA.  Oddly enough, the dead outnumber the living 400 to 1 ion Colma  
:=}
<wascal> korin whatever turns ya on.. we have no dogma
<Popalei> ?me wants the Tock to be her next Husband!!!!
<wascal> if it amuses someone.. even if only yourself.. do as thou wilt
> hey can i nominate frank zappa?
* Popalei wants the tIck....that's it
*** Cabbage changes topic to "Please do not use this channel as toilet tissue."
<wascal> so nominated and passed
<Tzimon> If you say it's a saint, it's a saint.  Waddya think, there are rules you 
can't cheat at or something?  :=}
<popsecola> Tzimon:  or is that Coma, Ca?  (I know,..rotten pun)
<wascal> anyone promoting the power or the absurd.. satire is a must in a society 
as tterly dismal as ours can be at times
<wascal> humor is salvation
<Korin> how about the guy who pranked the FBI in the FBI headquarters lobby?
<Popalei> wascal, ever hear of the Church of Bob?
<Tzimon> So is spending a weekend at a ski lodge with me... but I digress  ;=}
<Vswae> Wascal Go on 
*** wascal changes topic to "wipe thine ass with what is written and grin like a 
ninny at what is spoken, take thine refuge in thine wine and in the nothing behind 
everything"
<wascal> pop.. the Subgenius
<wascal> yes they claim to be a sister faith to discordian
<wascal> we kinda look at em as more of a "redheaded stepchild"
*** Brmhilda is now known as jdfksgdou
* Popalei dances cartwheels around the channel - she believes trhat she has been 
a discordian all along - not knowing it
*** Quits: Minstrel (Leaving)
*** Joins: Lykke (~woolly@dynxa36.flexnet.com)
<Popalei> or, more appropo, a redheaded stepsister
<wascal> they are basically a bunch of slackers founded by a weird guy looking to 
mke a dishonest buck in the name of whateverworks
<Korin> the church of bob, wanted to rob. got a glob of icky blob
<Cabbage> ACK! ACK! ACK! PFFT! PFFT! PFFT!
*** jdfksgdou sets mode: +o Cabbage 
<Tzimon> Bob's OK, but Eris is better in the woodshed.
<aestra> Hail Eris! All Hail Discordia!
<wascal> ever see the smiling faced guy with the pipe.. Bob Dobbs
*** Korin is now known as ShadowSto
<popsecola> hey hey hey,.. I've got red hair,... what does that make me?
* Cabbage coughs up a hairball.
*** Raven changes topic to "Knock here if you have been a closet discordian all 
of your life "
<Popalei> wascal, they dance in my head
<wascal> the subs basically require their membership to have IQs oif below 140
<Cabbage> Hail Bill!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<wascal> less than genius
<Popalei> knock knock knock]
> hahahahaha
<Tzimon> I know the prank of the stoat.... there is no b0b where I am.
*** Parts: xystra (koalie@as45.net-connect.net)
<wascal> we discordians arent as strict and prefer a brain in the head.. albeit a 
warped one
*** ShadowSto is now known as Order
<Tzimon> Kill it!
<Calimari> Kill it!
* Popalei doesn't qualify as a subgenius
<Raven> knock...banging on the wall!!!
* Tzimon invokes...
* Cabbage can't be in the church of subgenius :(
*** jdfksgdou sets mode: +o aestra 
<wascal> me neither..so they told me
<Calimari> ...an aneurysm upon Order
*** jdfksgdou sets mode: +o Tzimon 
<Raven> order is a disease!
* Popalei will stay here instead
*** Order is now known as orderapiz
*** Cabbage changes topic to "Save the Planet! Kill Yourself!"
<aestra> order is how you get food in a resturaunt
*** popsecola is now known as Dara-w
*** Tzimon changes topic to "Important thiongs being disgusted here"
*** orderapiz is now known as ordrAPiza
<pixi> is it possible to be a discordian SOME of the time?
<wascal> look at how confusing, complicated and senseless thew world around 
you is
*** Tzimon changes topic to "Important things being disgusted here, dammit."
<Popalei> now what about believing the goddess has a plan? could it be that chaos 
is the goddess plan cause it makes the game of life more fun from her 
perspective?
<wascal> do you think thats coincidence? or did someone do it to us on purpose
<Popalei> wascal, i do not belive in coincidence
<wascal> you got it popa
<Tzimon> Discordia's plan is to turn all of humanity in pomegranates at exactly 
3:00 on Friday.
<wascal> amen
*** Cabbage changes topic to "All people attending this discussion MUST partake 
of a hot dog, sans bun on Friday. or not..."
<Popalei> lol
<wascal> unelss she changes her mind
<Raven> chaos is what makes the world spin round and round and round...
<Tzimon> Fortunately, she has a very short attention span, so that's likely to 
change any minute now.
<ordrAPiza> in the heart of chaos there is a eratic order of discordia
<wascal> Eris basically is not malign or wicked.. just mischevious.. and a bit 
bitchy at times
<Raven> exactly!
<Tzimon> And in the heart of that is the biggest damned artichoke you've ever 
seen.
* jdfksgdou loves good bitch
* aestra loves a good bitch too
<wascal> the one known and occasionally prqactived rite we use is called the 
Turkey Curse
* Popalei has made it to the bitch semi-finals
*** ordrAPiza is now known as Abitch
<Popalei> what if you are born on thanksgiving?
* Dara-w is a good bitch,.. sometimes
<wascal> basicallyit is done by turning toward a particularly aneristic force, 
person, or whatever.. raising yoru arms as if copping a feel from a very large 
woman and chanting "gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble"
*** Quits: Lykke (Read error to Lykke[dynxa36.flexnet.com]: EOF from client)
<wascal> generally results will become apparent soon
<Abitch> then you were born cold turkey
<Popalei> l;ol, abitch
<Tzimon> Jakes.  Jakes must be done.
<wascal> ah yes  Jakes
*** Abitch is now known as Manic
*** Cabbage changes topic to "Gobble! Gobble! Gobble!"
<Popalei> jakles?
<Tzimon> Mail peach snapple to the Luxembourg consulate in Washington.
<wascal> a jake is basically a prank.. by mail, phone, email, skywriting, smoke 
signals.. etc
<Tzimon> Jake = a parnk done en masse... not harmful, just surreal.  
<wascal> something simple but cunning
<Popalei> tzimon, i tried to mail an egg to guan at 14 -- that count?
*** Cabbage changes topic to "Eris Loves You. Eros on the other hand..."
<Popalei> eerr guam
<Tzimon> F'rinstance, back a year or two ago, a couple hundred people all wrote 
to Hormel foods and claimed to have seen the face of Christ in a can of spam.
<wascal> and usually something so totalyl unexplainable the reaction best hoped 
for is for the target to scratch their head and go "huh?"
<Cabbage> No! No Snapple! Snapple is the anti-chao!
<Tzimon> All on the same day.
<wascal> ah yes Spam Jake Day!
<Popalei> lol, tzimon
<Manic> is Eris Eros's step brother?
<Raven> spamspamspam
<wascal> she is said to be either the twin sister of Ares 
<Popalei> spam, wonderful spam!
<Raven> Eros is Eris lover, one day..
<Tzimon> <--- did that... named his church "Our Laddy of the Jelly In The Spam 
Can"
<wascal> or the daughter of Nyx... goddess of night mate of chaos
<Dara-w> how about guano to guam
<Popalei> how is spam related to discordianism?
<wascal> glad you asked
<Manic> aaak noooo not that...
<wascal> though there really isnt an amswer other than.. because its really weird 
stuff
<Popalei> good enough for me!!!
<wascal> and of course the computer term "spam" meaning a real mess
* Dara-w 's husband calls his church : The church of the imaculate bugga bugga
<Tzimon> Video flagrare omnia es  ;=}
*** Manic is now known as Koryn
<wascal> Spam.. surreal food for surreal people
<Tzimon> It comes also from the ancient Illuminati custom of bathing in processed 
meats
*** Cabbage changes topic to "Vote Unabomber in 1996! The ULTIMATE 
Jake!"
<wascal> we liek anything that doesnt quite fit into normal scientific 
claassifications
<Popalei> eeeeeewwwwwwwww!
<wascal> liek silly putty
<Popalei> cabbage, that is a dangerous thought!!
<Raven> spam defies scientific description!!!
<Koryn> SPAM - Specially Pretreated Artificial Meats
<Popalei> thank gunk under your toenails that is not dirt?
<wascal> drugs are enjoyed and encouraged but not manditory if you are weird 
enuff without them
<Raven> not bad that....
<Tzimon> And, of course, there were the recent nonstudies which proved 
completely inconclusively that spam, if placed in the ears, will make you look 
very silly indeed.
<wascal> quite true tzi
<Dara-w> LOL
<Cabbage> All manner of disgusting substances are related to discordianism!!!
<Raven> rofl
<Koryn> if you eat spam, then you are on drugs indeed...
<wascal> basically all it takes to be a discordian priest is the desire to be one.. 
* Popalei is beginning to feel lighter and lighter
<wascal> if you are weird enough to want to.. youobviously qualify
* Cabbage spews forth something discusting
<Koryn> what if we just want to throw spam at people?
<Tzimon> The scariest thing is that if you think continuously in this manner for 
several hours, you *will* achieve a certain sort of enlightenment.
<wascal> in real greek myth in case anyone doesnt know.. eris's only real starring 
role was in starting the trojan war
<Tzimon> Then do it!
* Raven plummets down to steal Wascals fudge ball and replaces it with a spam 
ball
<Tzimon> Do it right *now*!
<wascal> kor than by all means brother.. do so!
* Popalei throws spam at korin!!
* Koryn ducks
*** Dara-w changes topic to "SPAM:  see what you've been missing"
<wascal> as long as you follow the 5 comandments.. or Pentabarf
* Koryn plops popalei with spam!
<Raven> not the 5 commandments!!!
<Popalei> wascal, please shae the 5
<Tzimon> Hehehehe
* Cabbage wonders if the US government keyed in on the word (you guess which 
one) in our topic and is evesdropping...
<wascal> 1 there is no goddess but goddess and she is your goddess, there is no 
discordian movement but the discordian movement and it is the discordian 
movement.. every golden apple corps is the beloved home of a golden worm
* jdfksgdou needs a sillier nick than this
<wascal> 2 all discordians must use the official discordian document numbering 
system
*** Koryn is now known as sillyNick
*** Cabbage changes topic to "BEWARE! The paranoids are watching you!"
*** Tzimon changes topic to "WE BARE when *anyone* is watching us"
<wascal> 3 a discordian is required during early illumination to go off alone on a 
friday and joyously partake of a hot dog to debunk the popular falsehoods of 
other religions 
<wascal> ic catholic.. no meat in friday, buddist.. nomeat period.. jewish.. no 
pork.. etc
<Popalei> why a hpt dog and not a steak
<sillyNick> you mean people don't normally do that?
<wascal> 4 a discordian shallpartake of no hot dog buns
<Popalei> goycha
<Popalei> why no buns
<wascal> and 5 a discordian is prohibited from believing anything he reads
<Raven> gotcha
<sillyNick> not hot dog puns?
<Tzimon> No.  People normally partake of hot dogs with *no joy at all*
*** Cabbage changes topic to "if you're paranoid... THEY'LL KNOW!"
<wascal> the story oft the Original Snub is in the principia
<Cabbage> wascal: 3! Sir, 3!!!!!!!!!!!!
*** sillyNick is now known as bunpun
* Dara-w doesn't believe a word of this whole encounter
*** Popalei is now known as funbun
* Rainsong believes every word uttered here tonight.
* funbun is gighgling uncontrolably....erleichda!
<wascal> basically if i recall correctly the other lesser gods who snubbed our lady 
ands she stole their hotdogs. leaving hrtem with only the buns
* Raven believes every word typed here tonight
<funbun> hahahahahahahahahhaha
<wascal> or somethinglike thaat.. its a meaningless story.. but damn it.. do it 
because i said so
* Raven believes nothing that has been spoken here tonight
<Tzimon> I only believe what noone is typing.  
<bunpun> whats worse than a hot dog? a Hollow Weenie!
<wascal> why else to hotdogs come in packs oif 10 and hot dog buns in packs of 
8?
*** Cabbage changes topic to "There is no reality, but reality, and this is the reality 
where there is no reality."
> shit i set my ashtray on fire
<funbun> how discordian of you!!
* Raven believes some of it, all of it, none of it
<wascal> fire!! fire!! cool
<Cabbage> wascal: SANS BUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<bunpun> because if you got extra hot dogs, you are already eight!
<Raven> cool, can I hold the water!!
<wascal> 1 out of every 5 peoiple is a closet discordian
* funbun gets out the sparklerts
<Tzimon> Discordians are the reason that hot dog buns come in packs of 6, and 
hotdogs in packs of 8.
<Raven> closet alert!
<Cabbage> IT IS SO WRITTEN. SO MOTE IT BE!
<wascal> its a *gasp* conspiracy!
<funbun> ho!
<Tzimon> Take the numbers 6 and 8; divide them both by two...
<Dara-w> and the other 4 are out of the closet?
<Raven> not the conspiracy!!
<Tzimon> Then divide the even number (4) by two again...
<bunpun> and you make 3 and 4...
<wascal> we also do our best to foil the plots of the Illuminati.. or maybe assist 
them.. hard to say.. 
<Vswae> Oh fuck that was bad
<Raven> the paraniod neighbor was right
<Tzimon> ... and you have 32, which is 23 backwards.  23 is a sacred number.  I 
rest my case.
<wascal> but i cant say too much about THEM on a public chan...
*** wascal was kicked by wascal (there are some secrets man was not meant to 
know~!)
*** Joins: wascal (~eng4kjw@hibbs.vcu.edu)
<wascal> ack...
<Tzimon> Heh
<funbun> now how does this tie in with the Gargoyles cartoon? i have heard them 
refer to the illuminato
* Cabbage believes nothing has been spoken here tonight.
<Tzimon> RELEASE THE FNORDS!
<Raven> not the Illuninati!!(fnord)
<wascal> noooo. not the fnords
<wascal> the illuminati are everywhere
*** bunpun is now known as afdak
<funbun> a bell in my head has begun to ring --- what are the fnords?
<Raven> fnords are everywhere..
<wascal> watch X-files.. who do you think THEY are
<Raven> run from the fnords!!!
<Tzimon> Yeah, I found a cabal in my sock drawer just this morning.  They get 
into the walls and breed...
*** Cabbage was kicked by jdfksgdou (hahahaha and x cannot get me)
<wascal> Mr X, Cancerman, Deep Throat
<funbun> wqhere did thecword fnord come from?
<Raven> fnords will eat your hometown!!!!!!
<wascal> the word what??
<wascal> if you dont see the fnords they cant hurt you
<Tzimon> Fnord was once the secret greeting of the Bavarian Illuminati.
<Raven> heheheheh
<afdak> its the year of the Wat...
<wascal> that was engrained into your psyche in kindergarten
<wascal> it is the ultimate subliminal
*** jdfksgdou is now known as brmhilda
<Tzimon> It was so secret, in fact, that many of them didn't know about it, and 
thus it's come to describe a psychological principle... if something doesn't fit yer 
paradigm, you don't see it.
<wascal> hidden in media of the conspiracy to produce low level feelings of panic 
and poaranoia
<Tzimon> A fnord is something you don't see with yer brain.
*** Joins: Cabbage (~imagine@dmn1-26.usa1.com)
<wascal> illumanation allows you to see the fnords and know whan they are trying 
to mindfuck you
*** brmhilda sets mode: +o Cabbage 
<funbun> wasxcal, and the medioa is controlled by the fnords?
<funbun> gotcha!!!!!
<wascal> fnords are everywhere
<Raven> or does the media control the fnords???
<afdak> fnord gnords?
<funbun> but i see the fnords in Barney...
<Tzimon> It just kinda sits in yer head and makes you do whatever *they* tell 
you.
<Tzimon> Or what *we* tell you.
<wascal> you cant really "see" them.. but knowing where ..or how to look lets ya 
feel them
<Raven> ohhnooooo not the subliminals!!!
<wascal> we do what our Rice Krispies tell us to!
*** You were kicked by Cabbage (*fnord*)
*** Attempting to rejoin...
*** Rejoined channel #pathweaving
*** Quits: Rainsong (Write error to Rainsong[204.227.174.237], closing link)
> woohooo :)
*** Cabbage sets mode: +o brmhilda 
<wascal> now is any of this making any sense or holding anyones interest in any 
way whatsoever?
<Tzimon> A Fnord has just gone by.
* afdak wiggles his bottom
* Dara-w gooses wascal again
> well interest yes, but sense nope
<Vswae> still with you 
*** Raven changes topic to "here for fnord proofing, protect yourself now~!!!"
* funbun got it, understasnds it all, understands some, and ubderstands none!
<wascal> reccomended reading... the Illuminatus Trilogy byu Robert Shea and 
Robert SAnton Wilson.. Schrodingers cat.. or anything by Wilson
*** Cabbage changes topic to "Her Apple Corps Are Strong!"
<wascal> the Principia Discordia
<funbun> and i believe none of it, some of it, and all of it!!!!!
<wascal> and just about anything else
<Dara-w> yes,.. makes perfectly screwed up un-sense
<Vswae> and of course Adams
<wascal> yes.. Adams
* funbun offers ice-9 to wascal
<Raven> The Trilogy is great, hadn't run across anything else by Wilson
<funbun> and vonnegut!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<wascal> Vonnegut.. especially cats cradle
*** afdak is now known as Unmaker
* Tzimon proclaims Dara-w enlightened.  And entallened as well.
* funbun nods
<Tzimon> brb
*** Quits: Tzimon (Read error to Tzimon[crl5.crl.com]: Connection reset by 
peer)
*** Quits: Calimari (Read error to Calimari[crl5.crl.com]: Connection reset by 
peer)
* Cabbage recommends THiNK! magazine, especially the article on the 
"Discordian Cult of Bill the Cat"
<wascal> Cosmic Trigger. masks of the illuminate
<wascal> Fun with Milk and Cheese
<wascal> old Bloom County
* Dara-w thinks that bill the cat is her hero
<Cabbage> The Oxford English Dictionary..
<wascal> theres even a short section on discordian in "drawing Down the 
Moon"bu Margot Adler
<Raven> I think that there is an agent of the Illumaniti is watching us!!
<funbun> would old king crimson be considred discordian?
<wascal> dunno them fun
<wascal> but King Missile sure are
<Vswae> I have a question
<wascal> i have an answer
<Vswae> what is the counting system ?
<Unmaker> how about old king cole?
*** Cabbage changes topic to "I used to be the Walrus, but now I'm John."
<Unmaker> and his 9 day old porage?
<funbun> they have a soing about catfood, catfoofd, catfood
<wascal> you are not cleared for that information
<Vswae> comandment 3 ?
<wascal> the Law of 5s
*** Unmaker is now known as Unicorn
<Vswae> I c
<wascal> all things come in fives, or are divisible by 5 or multiples of 5 or are in 
somw way kindasorta vaguely related to 5
<Cabbage> wascal: Like 23...
<Raven> is there a discordian www page???
*** wascal changes topic to "when in doubt.. fuck it.. when not in doubt.. get in 
doubt"
<wascal> a few
<wascal> and alt.discordia on Usenet
<Cabbage> 42 is related to 5, but I'm not sure how.
<Dara-w> they are first cosins
<wascal> just webcrawler "discordia" youll find lots of stuff
<Unicorn> 5*8+2
<wascal> or if yoru brave.. search "fnord"
* Raven nodds head..
<Raven> not the fnord!!! will have to be very brave that day.hehheh
<wascal> the entire principia is in one site
<Cabbage> Unicorn: Yeah, and 8 is 3 more than 5, which when added to 2 makes 
5!
<wascal> actualy Steve jackson games is publishing itin real book form with 
pictures and all.. Loompanics Unlimited did originally but those are hard to find
<Raven> that sounds interesting, which site ///but searching is fun!!!
<Vswae> Thank you ALL!
<Vswae> good night
<wascal> but ive never bough it.. just downloaded it and printed dozens of copiues 
on the universitys paper and gave em away
<Cabbage> wascal: Including the M's?
<Dara-w> some op kick me,... I've gotta go
*** Parts: Vswae (~vswae@mercury13.calon.com)
<wascal> what Ms?
<wascal> ack.. lost my ops.. oh well
<Cabbage> wascal: The Principia Discordia ends in roughly 500 pages of M's
* wascal kicks dara anywayt
*** Cabbage sets mode: +o wascal 
<Dara-w> wascal:  thank you
*** funbun is now known as Loralei
<wascal> ah yes.. the Ms... maybe thats where all this MM nonsense really came 
from..hmmm?
<wascal> theiving wiccans
<Raven> thank you!!! and we are not theives!!
*** Unicorn is now known as MoonSaber
*** Dara-w was kicked by wascal (hasta la vista baby)
*** Joins: grin (~acc@winnt5.tyler.net)
<Raven> or maybe we are, hehhehheh
<Raven>  night all
* Cabbage raises a Jolly Roger
<Raven> sweet dreams
<Loralei> so does Discordianism endorse/promote chaos magic?
<wascal> of course
<Loralei> hmmmmm
<wascal> on the seriouser side.. yes
*** Parts: grin (~acc@winnt5.tyler.net)
<wascal> random causality
<Raven> Chaos magic eh....hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
<MoonSaber> the magic of serindipidy?
<Raven> the best kind
<Loralei> wascal, on the serious side, i have seen some ppl way fucked up using 
chaos magic
<wascal> my motto is basically.. "something'll happen"
<wascal> it has to be approached with a grain of saly. and a little chocholate 
sauce
<Loralei> wascal, for a wiccan, i find i cannot reconcile that with the Rede, it 
seems really irresponsible
*** Quits: Raven (Really must go now........ :-()
<wascal> i think personally with any type of "magick" all we can really do is send 
our energies out there and intersect the probability waves
* Cabbage stands before Loralei and begins Gobbling. :)
<MoonSaber> any thing that can happen is gotta happen anytime soon?
<wascal> we can influence.. but not create.. we can push the diuce and maybe 
get lucky
<Loralei> roflroflroflrofl
<Loralei> does that mean cabbage or i am whatever it is the gobbling does
<MoonSaber> the magic of luck
<wascal> i personally follow a somewhat modified rede.. but i babbled that on the 
ethics discussion
<Cabbage> Loralei: Yes.
<wascal> i also think nothing can hurt you unless you let it hurt you
<Loralei> wascal: you talk of chaos magic or magic in general???(linq)
<wascal> and most mundanes can only be influenced if something breaks the 
mundanity of their reality tunnels
<Loralei> wascal, that is the basoics of shielding
<wascal> magick in general..as i see it
<Loralei> ok (linq)
<MoonSaber> if you think your ok your really really ok?
<wascal> you cant always get what you want.. etc etc...
* Cabbage suggests doing the ethics convo again soon... missed it :(
<Cabbage> BTW, windwolf sends her thoughts... 
<wascal> theres no set fate.. we create our own reality.. but there IS a random 
element.. we cant create our reality absolutely and flawlessly no matter how 
good we are
*** Parts: pixi (jam@dialin36.annex2.radix.net)
<Loralei> agreed, waswcal
<wascal> so we have to respect the luck of the draw.. the random factor. or itll 
bite us in the ass
<wascal> thats where discordia coems in
<Loralei> CREATE YOUR OWN REALITY, $19.95, NO C.O.D.S, PLEASE
<MoonSaber> we live inbetween the intersection of fate and chance
<wascal> a goddess to invoke when you gotta take a wild chance against a big 
ordered stagnant system
<Loralei> so if we have to respect the random factor you open up the possibilty of 
coincidence!?!(linq)
<wascal> discordia is , as i introed for myt personal "credentials' not my sole 
spiritual expression
* Cabbage is tired.
<Cabbage> G'night
<MoonSaber> I think I pray to a particular goddess when ever I roll the dice
<MoonSaber> I think her name is "Comeon baby comeon!"
<Cabbage> Morning even
<wascal> but i find it comes in most handy in mundane life.. to know and respect 
the fgact that sometimes shit just happens
<Cabbage> Thank you all (or not)
<Loralei> hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
<wascal> and if your in with eris whit wont happen TOO bad.. tho she does liek to 
play more with her followers and shit wil happen WEIRD
*** Quits: aestra (Leaving)
* Cabbage turns into a pumpkin.
*** Cabbage is now known as pumpkin
* Loralei makes pumpkin pie
<MoonSaber> hmmm when shit happens to me, its usually follows one after 
another...
<wascal> but as i was explaining to a co-worker today... if you knwo that you 
cant control what lifes gonna throw at ya.. you are in as much of a sense as 
possible prepared for it
<Loralei> wascal are you wiccan?(linq)
*** pumpkin was kicked by pumpkin (Outta here, you bum!)
<wascal> thus i rarely if ever suffer "stress" becausde i keep my sense of humor 
intact and just grin and bear it when lifegets rough
* wascal is a discordian/taoist/shaman of the Bear totem/free-lance mystic and 
stand-up philospher
<Loralei> ok just checking(linq)
<wascal> i take bits and peices from everywhere.. but cant call myself wiccan..i 
follow some wiccan things.. but its too structired forme
*** Joins: Solid (~Solid@www-33-125.gnn.com)
<Loralei> same here(linq)
<wascal> well i think this is winding down...
<MoonSaber> (linq)? lor?
> *nod*
*** Quits: Solid ( tata for now)
> thank you wascal and others :)
<wascal> i hope ive enlightened almost as much as ive confused
<Loralei> linq = lor's better half
> hahahahaha
<wascal> no sweat.. i gotta crash.. im totally wasted
<wascal> gonna give spidey back the reins
<MoonSaber> LOL
> later wascal take care
<Loralei> mp wascal
<wascal> nitey nite all and goddess bless
<MoonSaber> mp wascal wabbit
> see you back in #wicca, all thanks for participating
*** wascal is now known as SpiderWlf
<Loralei> this was fun!!!!! or not
<SpiderWlf> mm all..
Session Close: Wed Jan 31 22:57:02 1996