By Jewish tradition, God gave the Torah at mount Sinai. Included with the written Torah was an Oral Torah. We (Jews) hold that Kabbalah is part of this oral tradition. shoot brm. > i just wanted to ay that noone will have a voice untill you open for discussion sorry no prob. :> Now, all of the Biblical prophets can be said to have access to these traditions. Ezekiel is looked apon by Kabbalists of almost all schools as having a prophetic experience that can be duplicated in some way. Now jump ahead in time by a bit to the Greek and babalonian times. When the oral law was written down, most of the Kabbalistic Knowledge was kept out. That dosn't mean that there is none in the Mishna or Talmud, it's just sparse. During the begining of the common era, there are many references to such books as the Sefer Yetzirah, Bahir, Sefer raziel Hamalach, and others. I'll go into the books in a minute or so. There is a lot of evidense that pythagerous and other greek philosophers had contact with Israel, leading to a strong link between Kabbalah and pytherian theory. Even closer in time we come to the middle ages, where the story gets really exciting. Coppies of such books as the Zohar and others mentioned earlier were printed and found their way into the hands of scholars in general. What had been a closely guarded tradition was starting to come out to others. It is from this time that Hermetic Kabbalah finds it's roots. Taking the few writtings that were public or translated and adding on to them additional mytical traditions. I'm going to digress here and explaine the structure of Kabbalah. Kabbalah is divided into 3 basic parts. That of the theoretical, meditative and practical. the theoretical is the writtings and speculations on God, his/her/its relationship to the universe and man, and how creation came about. The meditative is to take the theoretical and study it in intimate detail. To study ones self and environment and derive enjoyment and knowledge from it. The practical is the last part learned, in actuallity. If one knows the universe and can get to such a mind set to be almost one with it, that is knowing it intimatly, then one can manipulate reality. Basically what you would call magick. Of these three divisions, the practical seems to be the one most focused on by the Hermeticists. There is a large amount of writings in all three divisions, but few in any translated form. I'm going to open it up for questions now. There is quite a bit more to say, but I think that the questions are important now. Questions? I would like to know if the tree is more important than the system of numbers. i have one ... rabbi, you said the tradition was kept orally, until the greeks started writing it down...but, were the books written, in hebrew, before that? The tree of life has direct links to numbers. Each seferot (divine emination) has a number assigned to it. That is why there are 32 paths of wisdom in Judaism 10 for the seferot and 22 for the letters. I meant the assigning of numbers to letters in reading Torah. No, the greeks didn't write it down. The rabbi's of the time, fearing the loss of knowledge wrote down much of the oral law. Rabbi: earlier you mentioned Pytherian theory .. was that a typo for pathagorian theory, or something else? mm bri so, the book of job, for example, wasnt actually written by job? The assigning of numbers to letters, used primarily in Gematria, is a large topic that I'd like to hold off till my next lecture. so symbolism has alot to do with the kabbalah? or just numbers? mm Brigid :) the book of job is now thought to be essentially persian in origin.... pytherian is right, :> Rabbi: What books would you recommend for those wanting to learn more about meditative qabalah? The book of Job was written by a prophet who lived after Job (rebbetzin note) Rabbi: there was a recent discovery within the old writings that some of the stray marks within the elder books were actually musical notations of a sort ... is there anything similar to this type of thing within the cabala? On the Torah (i know off the subject) what is the importance of it being kept over a doorway of the home? Symbolism has a lot to do with life and as the Kabbalah is used in interaction with life, symbolism abounds. Meditation and Kabbalah by rabbi Aryeh Kaplan. rabbi:is kaplan still living? There is a strong cantorial component to most Jewish writings, Kabbalah included. Rabbi Kaplan has passed away a number of years ago. Rabbi, do Jewish meditators follow the path of the Snake or the path of lightening? My wife is going to check out the origin of the book of Job for me. * Rayn is still lost...sorry all so in cabala, as in traditional hebrew worship, the oral tradition is still a major part of life? hmmm interesting .. perhaps the last holdouts of the oral tradition since the Lakota bought all those mainframes. there is no mention of a path of the snake in Jewish Kabbalah. On the other hand, Sefer Yetzira speaks of lightning flashing up and down it's length. tonality has a lot to do with magical qabalah as well On rayn's question earlier, that is a mezuzza, I'll answer that one later. the term 'path of the serpent' is very recent, less than 200 years... Is there any specific 'path' through the tree of life mentioned in jewish kabbalah? Thanks Rabbi and Urizen. the earlier hermeticist just talked about the path of return There is a large amount of Kabbalah in the prayer services. The Amida is a meditative prayer said 3 times a day that has, in my oppinion, great power. doesn't kaplan have a breakdown of the amida in one of his works looking at how it works theurgically? tonality is heavily related to pronunciation. As the pronunciation is of heavy importance, the tone should be examined also. I believe Kaplan did a breakdown in "meditation and Kabbalah" or "Jewish meditation" i need to look at that again... Im just giving Rabbi a few seconds so he can get to everyone's questions..if you have any more, just /msg brm or me. > or yemmie the path used is all dependant on what your doing. The basic path is keter, chokma, binah, chesed, gevurah, tiferet, netzach, hod, yesod, malchut. and back again. That is what is described as "lightning going and coming". a dificult concept, like many others here. Question? morglefay: you have the floor mode +v morglefay erm.. Sidebar:My wife has pointed out that this has moved from Kabbalah for the beginner to more advanced topics. ? :) thnx, Yem. since i know almost nothing, i would like to know exactly what experience Ezekial had that everyone's trying to reproduce and why (and yes, i have abible, but ... ) OK. Ezekial described in a prophetic vision the journey to Heaven, the chambers, cosmology, etc. ezekial was granted the vision of the living ones ministering to the throne of god... There are a number of works that go deeper into the vision and describe in more detail the Angels encountered, etc. living ones being "angels"? the chaiot ha-qodesh ok, why would they want to reproduce Ezekials vision and not seek their own??? or are they just trying to use Ezekials methods?? Chayot Hakodesh - holy Chayot. Chayot are beings described as having 4 faces each facing a different direction. Ezekial described being in such a mind state that he saw each face at the same time. the point is to undergo basically the same process, not reproduce the vision exactly I think they are trying to find a way to Heaven. :> Actually, his vision has been used as a basis for examining the "other dimensions" and their inhabitants. side note: those are blake's 'four zoas' :) (always need to get blake in :)) zoas? while Kabbalah speaks of 4 universes, i've never heard the term zoas. drabuse: you have the floor :) zoa=living one in greek Ah. There are many levels of Angels described. I think living ones is a translation used for one. Sorry... I was wondering what the "english translations" for the various points on the Tree of Life are. I remember that "The Kingdom" is one of them. Actually, my wife says Chayot actually means living ones zoa=chaioth the four creatures of the vision about the throne Keter = crown (will) Chakhmah = wisdom Binah = understanding Chesed = love Gevurah = Strength (Din is also put here meaning Stern Judgement) Tiferet = Beauty Netzach = splendor Sorry, netzach = victory Hod = splendor Yesod = foundation Malchut = Kingship Please remember that these are just names used for the sepherot. The actuall descriptions can take up books per sephirah. and vary widely from one school to another.... ;) there is also a quasi seferah called Da'as, which means knowledge. The seferot are seen as divine emulations as well as a structure. rab:thats a real can of worms.. Connecting the seferot are 22 paths, each corresponding to a Hebrew letter. Hermetic Kabbalists also put the tarot cards on these paths. I think I should hold off on the tree, seferot and paths for another lecture. mordbear: you have the floor * Yemanja pokes the +v person erm.. well he left hmmm .. well my question was on the tree, so I will bend to the good rabbi's will and forego it to another lecture. shoosh :> As I said, the tree is a large discussion that I'll probably do in a month or so. Hitting each seferah one at a time and their interactions. well a question on the overall then ... OK, Shoot. isn't the tree seen as both a macrocosm and a microcosm? part of larger trees, and holder of smaller trees? In a way, yes. The tree is seen as a framework in reality as well as a framework within humans. and, in some schools a the structure of the mind of god AHHH .. THAT is MUCH simpler than the complicated way I heard it before. thanx hermeticist have worked out complicated systems of telescoping trees.. I guess you can say that in a very shallow way. * Lord_Bear sobs as he has to leave the screen to go finish housework are there any more questions? It seems we have a question from my wife here. well, inasmuch as the eminations manifest what was alredy potential in god's essence WIFE: you have the floor :) :) Can you explain the idea of the tree as a framework within humans? thats all the msgs for question i have.. That's a tall order also, but here goes. The framework of the seferot can be seen in many lights. One such light is the dicodomy and balance of different groups of seferot. :) Take Chesed, gevurah and tiferet. Chesed is Love, unadultered, uncaring love. Gevurah is Strength/Judgement stern and unbending, Tiferet is a balance between the two. I love my wife totally, but I can get frustrated at things sometimes. These can easily be seen as aspects of Chesed and gevurah. rabbi: you could kick in the divisions of the soul as they sit upon the tree.... But seeing her beauty (Tiferet), I'm able to balance all of those feelings within myself. I hope that explains things a little better. *** Yemanja sets mode: +v DrkMother drkmother: you have the floor ok, Rabbi, so the tree isn't a physical framework, but a spiritual/emotional/intellectual ideal humans try to follow? Yes. The tree exists as a spiritual structure, not a physical one. well, I didn't mean "physical" what about the universal then how is it related to the rest? OK, the sephirot, as a structure, exists in the universe of Atzilut, that of emanations and nearness to God. rab: it your notion that the tree is the objective structure of the spiritual reality or a construct to describe it? The structure relates more to humans than to anything else, in my oppinion. While the universal structure can be seen in it, it is seen more intimatly in each persons psyche. I don't know if that answered the question at all. if not, can you rephrase it a little? do you look at the tree as an objective ontological structure? ? that one lost me. please expand that a little more. If I get you right, then the answer is no. It isn't a structure of all existance, just Gods interaction with it. do you think of the tree as something wiht objective metaphysical existance or as an epistemic/psychological construct? Who can say. A spiritual object can probably fall into both catagories. I'd say it's a objective metaphysical object that acts as a psychological construct. streetcar: hope you like that nick, cause if you change it, I'll kick you. ? streetcar? oops..sorry.. :> Concepts have a metaphysical/spiritual existance as much as physical objects do. rabbi, you're a good neoplatonist :) > urizen so are you hermetic? It is written that everything in existance has an Angel standing over it, interacting with it. which i mean in a complimentary way... a good proclean neoplatonist,,,,, The Angel actually stands over the spiritual representation of the object. i'd say my primary orientation is to hermetic christianity..... Are there any more questions? What is neoplatonism? rabbi: have you ever read 'the elements of theology' by proclus? If there are any questions please message me Actually, no. My philosophy work is scattered outside the realm of Judaism. *** Yemanja sets mode: -m the eminationist school founded by plotinus that heavily influenced both jewish and xian theology Ah. my wife just told me what neopltanism is and I remember learning it, but not the term. If there are no more questions rabbi and urizen would you like to finish up and we would like to thank you for your time and patience.. and invite you back again.. :) cross iamblichus and the torah and you practically have kabbalah right there..:) iamblichus? late pagan neoplatonist, father of theurgy... wrote on the mysteries and the theology of arithmatic * MorgLeFay bows and departs ... "MP all .. hugz ... " As I mentioned earlier, there is strong evidence that many greek philosophers had contact with Israel. Saying which concept came first or if they were born from a mixture is almost imposable. yeah, i think there was a lot of cross polination both ways.. Thank you all for coming, Hope you enjoyed it, and I hope to do this again. after all philo of alexandria was ajew thanks Rabbi, it was enlightening! thank you and the neoplatonist were in contact with chaldea * SpiderWlf really enjoyed this! > yes rabbi thank you very much Onkelos was a greek (converted) mp all, mma mp mma windie > urizen thank you also *mwah* mp windwolf take care all I think we covered quite a lot of ground. Take care all. shla'ama... shalom :) thanks rabbi Shalom all and good night. > shaolm rabbi > shalom rabbi's wife shalom rabbi and wife rabbi, you wife knows aramaic? Shalom. I enjoyed this too, and I must say I did not realize my husband was such a great lecturer. shalom rabbi, shla'ama rabbis wife :) My wife has a degree in Hebrew, but her Aramaic is not as strong. (She's better than me in both languages) thats modern spoken aramaic anyway... Her name is Judith > oh good shla'ama judith > finnaly she has a name :) > shalom judith Ah. Our knowledge of Aramaic is from the talmudic period, nothing recient. Hey, I don't even have a name here. :> My husband's name is Michael. (Isn't he great?) nod :) *grin* rebbetzin yup yeah, thats moder assyrian, a xian language Oy. I love her, but sometimes she goes out of her way to do stuff like that. (I think she's great also) we already knew you name is michael :) and dinowitz at that :) :> That's only my english name. I think only Brm has heard my Hebrew name, and that not even complete. > i think i told you mine I was told (in Yeshiva) that arameic was a dead language, not used since the Talmudic age (maybe a little later). Where did it make the transition to modern Assyrian? Brm, I must confess, I had forgotten it. :< > see :( I'm terable with names. I'm a tech. > well i don't know the engilsh spelling sooo Gota run. Catch you all tomorow. :>