Missing the part where Scire introduces himself and begins to tell about how he got into online rituals... Session Start: Wed Feb 21 21:55:35 1996 * Logging #pathweaving2 to: [#pathwea.log] One of the regulars on the channel at that time (no longer on IRC, unfortunately) approached me, asking if we were going to have a ritual for the holiday. My initial reaction was to wonder how this person thought all these people, all over the globe were going to get together on such short notice... I thought she'd lost her marbles... It turns out that what she was referring to was online ritual... Until this time I had never heard of such a thing. She told me of an online rite that she had attended for a Full Moon that was Priestessed by Margot Adler (on AOL I think), and sent me a copy of the rite. Before I knew it I was Priesting an Online Spring Equinox rite. (This was the first online rite I'd ever attended, mind you) She acted as Priestess, and 3 others attended. Surprisingly, It went fairly well. I emerged from the experience with a new feeling of closeness with those I'd shared the Rite, and was so full of energy I spent many more hours IRCing that night. Since then, I have been putting on public online rites at almost every Moon and Sabbat. I came to be involved with online rite sometime early last summer. I was new to irc and the undernet wicca channel. Scire: Perhaps I'm jumping the gun here, but what do you see as benefits frm online rites During one of my first moons I was asked to act as alternate for the HPS. As it turns out, she was unable to make it and I stepped in for her and enjoyed my first experience as a cyber-Priestess. Dara-w: You are... :) We'll open for questions in a little bit. Since that moon, I have acted as Priestess for many online rites. It has been a wonderful experience for me and I am grateful to have had ti. I am also pleased that we are now rotating, or attempting to do so, the roles of HP and HPS. I think this benefits us all, no one gets burned out and the rites ddon't get stale. ! :) So, cybr ritual?? Can you really have an effective ritual online??? This was one of the first questions I had when I got started in all this... Well, the answer, however surprising, is yes. Cyberspace lends itself very well to ritual work. When we cast a Circle, we create sacred space. This sacred space exists between the worlds. In a time which is not a time, And with cyberspace, this circle is very large, no? A place which is not a place... Such is the case with cyberspace. There is no time in cyberspace. We all come together in the same "moment" reguardless of whether it is morning or afternoon, night or day in our worlds. We all come together in the same "space" regaurdless of our physical location. I would describe cyberspace as perhaps an intellectual astral plane. You really do get the feeling of being together here. As most of you probably know, strong visualization skills are an important factor in creatin the proper atmosphere rfor cyber rituals. The visualization is generally one of the first parts of the rite, after the introduction and explanation. Personally, I find it somewhat challenging to concentrate on a visualization that I have to rread. MOst times, visualizations are a somewhat passive act, with one person speaking while the others simple listen and let their minds form the images. Engaging both the intellectual and more passive parts of the mind simultaneously cant be difficult, but with time and practice it can also be quite rewarding. Now we'd like to talk a little about some of the problems encountered when doing cyber rituals.... Of course the easiest mistake with online rites is timing... It can be very difficult to figure out when to be here for a rite if the time listed is not your time zone. *blush* Luckily for most, we tend to run about an hour late with these... (Pagan Standard Time) Another big challenge with online rites is the network itself. We have had occasion to postpone, or even cancel a Rite because Eris was playing with our net connections :) Netsplits are just no fun in the middle of a Rite. Local providers can make life difficult as well. The dreaded busy signal has kept me from arriving ontime to more than one rite. Finally, it is important that those attending the rite are patient and respectful. It can be very unnerving to the priest or priestess to have to deal with whining, unneccessary messages, and other forms of distraction. At this point in time we are defenseless against many of the problems that plauge online rituals, i.e. net splits. But, there are a few steps that can be taken in the way of damage control. It is quite useful to appoint someone ahhead of time to hhandle relogs. Reloging involves invitin people back to the channel who have been seperated due to a net split. Also, having as many server options as possible can be helpfull in avoiding lag. Another useful idea is to have an alternate HP/HPS chosen in the event that someone cannot make it, for whatever reason. Most importantly, I would say that we all need to remember that this is an imperfect medium and the rites are not always going to go as planned. anyone who was at the last ritual knows what I'm talking about! :) ! :) Another suggestion i would have would be to not be afraid to get involved. Volunteer to call a quarter or help with the writing of a visualization. As a group we all benefit from the exposure to as muchh diversity as possible in our rites. The attendance at the last few rituals can also make them somewhat difficult to organize. Starting with the next moon we will be adding a portion of time to answer questions. This segment will most likely come just after the into/explanation and before the visualization. PLease do not barrage the acting HP/HPS with /msgs before this segment. It is very distracting and time consuming. In the future hold your questions till the question and answer segment, we will handle all of them then. finally, it is my hope that with continued involvement from all of you that we can look forward to sharing many fun, interesting and magickal rituals in the future! Speaking of Q&A sessions... I'll be here for a few more minutes if there are any questions for windwolf or myself. * windwolf *nods* > Is there a place you post the ritual times and places? Ive never been to a cyber-rite... my question is how to keep some kind of energy flowing, do you rely on personal energies or do you somehow project these fromperson to person? drey: they are posted as the channel topic Drey: Ritual times are generally posted in the topic on #wicca Windwolf, I have a question... yes barb? Are we going to experience a ritual tonight? no medea, not unless brm and spider have something planned > Scire: Do you by any chance still have that Adler ritual you were sent. :) Or, do you have logs of rituals you have done? You say that anyone can..and should..volunteer to "help out" with the online ritual..We come from so many different traditions and practices; some of us solitary, some of us coven oriented... How do you keep it from being a hopeless crazy-quilt? But I thought tonights topic was a solitary and cyber rits. Tika: Visualization is used to bring "together" the participants. It is up to each individual to "stay there" for the lenght of the rite. Drey: I have some logs of rites that I have priested. I will try to make some available through the web page soon. I wonder if phone lines are anything like ley lines? barb: good question...in the past, the areas where folks get involved are with the quarter callings and the visualizations. I consider us ecclectic, and we not yet experieced a problem in this area. > Scire: Thank you. brm, did you have a chance to read the info I sent you about cybr rites? moonsaber no i could not find it in my files medea: that is the topic, but this is a discussion, not a ritual Okay; I'm not sure I follow you, but if you don't have any problem with it, that's great. Thanks. Barbarian: We welcome the diversity. The structure of the rite itself tends to keep people from straying too far. windy, did you get a chance to read that info I sent you about the cybr rites? scire: *nod* no, moon, i'm sorry, I didn't Thanks, Scire. Oh, so the discussion is on how to have cybr rits, like in the future, right? medea: yes, and how they have been done thus far.. Oh, I see, thank you your welcome medea well to summerize, it discussed some of the points you have discussed tonight, and also had suggestions on how to make cybr rites work, and other little tidbits about it. I thought it would have been usefull. Any other questions? moon: yes, it probably would have been but I wanted to speak from my own experiece tonight, and I just didn't get to it. ok, is that it for questions? Is there a patroness of the Net? * TikaBird ties up coyote and tapes his mouth shut Yep, Thanks guys, it was very informative. Mp, mma, Be Thy Ways Ever Blessed. Okay then, I guess we can turn it over to our hostesses, brm and Spidey, for a discussion of Solitary Ritual. (assuming that hasn't been postponed) I've got a date to get to. mm Bri! are we allowed to talk now? > Have any of you every tried to use a MUSH environment, or something like it, for "permanent" ritual space? Oh, is there more? mp scire! :) Thank you Scire and wildwolf the divination web is interesting in that way Drey hugz bri... I have to get to bed... gotta job... (gruntGroanMoan) Mp Scire, thanks a lot! Really appreciated it. Drey: No, but it has been suggested. Perhaps a future venture. well if all would like to start talking about solitary rits we can do that Shuckiedarns. dara: hmmm...wildwolf, i like that! :) > Serpente: Yes, exactly. I would like to discuss this with people as I think I have a site for such a venture. mp, mma folx Someone please send a log of this! mp Scire > mp Scire Yes, please mp scire, mma! and thanks so much! mp Scire me 2... mpmma all windwolf: hey, you try typing while changing channels :) (sorry 'bout that) mp scire, mma! *hug* mp,mma scire and thank you Why not use Divweb? np dara, i always screw up people's nicks.. Brm? > Serpente: I haven't seen it in over a year. I'll look into it. Also, take a survey and let me know if any object to my publishing this. *mwah* Windwolf thanks G'night all. > Anybody object to Scire publishing this? dara: wildwolf, mindwolf (mine :/ ), windwolf--what's the difference? :) no NOpe, not me! mp Scire * windwolf only objects to her typo's being published.. nope > Ok, I'll let Scire know. heheh violet, hey, i like 'em both! * Drey giggles at Windwolf WindWyld... Solitary Witches,..... how many are here tonight? > Brm: Anytime you are ready. > Right guys? mm all mm cybrWitch!!! > and gals. :) * SpiderWlf is! Billions and billions... Me mm cybrWitch I am most of the time. I'm one, Dara-w <--------- is solitare brb.. > I am at the moment. * brmhilda has been a solitare at times * Galahad is a solitare * Wseeker is solotare Uh, oh.... * Violet is solitare uh oh? (I hear Liath retching....Robin must have given him a present...) Well, we have quite a few at the moment,... I've been solitary for about 10 yrs now *nod* the reason we chose this as a topic tonight was to exchange info on how we practice get tips and stuff.... I believe that most of the Solitaries here tonight have been in the Craft awhile (Oops....she did have an accident....apparently wet socks don't smell too good..) <-has been solitary for 10 years. <---in Craft for 11 years. I need help, I don't mean to interupt, but my husband is mad and just slammed the door, I'm scarred. why is he angry? oh dear Because he wants the phone. Gosh, I'm a newbie; I've been in the craft for only 4 years.. medea why are you scared?? I hate anger ]: Connection reset by peer) He's not Craft, is he? medea: I'm sorry.. No, he's athetist > <---- 5 years. Barbarian: :) we'll forgive you I think I better go, Sorry all. perhaps letting him use the phone would not be unreasonable? It can be frustrating.. I make up for it with effort. anger can be productive if channeled properly....this doesn't sound like one of those times. > mp Medea. mp Medea take care Medea Medea: Sorry. Mp, Blessed Be. Medea, take care,.. bright blessings MP, Medea....safe journey. medea is there reason for you to be scared??? Yes, but he's calling a friend of his, who is a girl, he will talk for hours. (((((((((((media)))))))))) Sheeeeeesh...not another one..... *sigh* Poor Medea! I really feel for her. anyone want to kill a cat for me????????? why? * Drey giggles at Dara-w dara did that yesterday No. well i didn't kill it Bugs, yes....cats, no. * SpiderWlf has to relog..ill be right back... i cut it up tho :) > Dara-w big clumsy paws eh? LOL dara: No, I have two you can have if you'd like to kill them, though :) And did Erato have a pasta recipe calling for cat parts? ok is does anyone want to discuss solitare practice? MMA, Windy. mma windy :) hi again all * Dara-w 's cat jumped on keyboard and exited # for her Yes, brmy! Definitely. what should we discuss about brm? brigid LOL nope certainly brm :) ok then lets get this ball rolling what ever you wish are you going to lecture first? What can be the biggest downfall for the Solitary??? General question to get discussion rolling scince i have been in covens more than solitare i felt that someone else would be better at discussing it * cybrWitch listens i do feel however that solitare work is paramount to any practice id say being lazy and not doing anything..its easy to get slack.. and that the solitare work is what makes a witch not a coven * Drey nods at SpiderWlf well, I have been solitary for a long time, do you feel that sometimes solitares do not get "things" right or that they have an misconception of something? > The commitment of a coven helps to motivate in my experience. moonsaber if you do something and feel you are really sending it then it makes no difference I have always been solitare i think we are more likely to get things "right" (for ourselves) cos we learn it all our own, no one is teaching and saying "ok, do it like this" it is the intention that creates magick so, by thinking for ourselves, we find our own way * serpente chuckles biggest problem w. solitare that I see is no feedback It has been my opinion that being a Solitary, while having the up side and is my preferred state of being, a Solitary Witch has a tougher path to follow, s/he has only Self for motivation but if you are not confident and have doubts then it can undo all the magick as such my work has been mostly what is considered "high" magick, in that I use very few tools etc > Dara-w: Right, but it is awesome when you get a bunch of people motivated and in tune with each other. mm y'all...no wonder I couldnt find you...I thought it was #pathweaving thats a question, is it neccessary for a witch to use tools? althea very sorry for the change love > MoonSaber: Nope. :) Something that was brought up during the discussion on cyber-ritual; Windwolf brought up that it was challenging to both read and visualize; engaging both hemispheres of the brain, so to speak.. no worries...I should've done a world list...but it takes forever we were hiding out althea ;) list #pathwork* works moonsaber no the tools are symbolic and help you focus but it is our will that practices or weav* etc.. uh right, I have always found that will alone was enough. This is something that the Solitary practitioner has no choice about. S/he is HP, HPS; must design and write their own rituals, cast their own circles, etc. This is a massive challenge, and not to be taken lightly. Or use existing rituals which might make more sense than trying to develop an entire system before you even start :) Barbarian, very true, but then you have ppl who say that the solitare lays claim to rank that is not their's having not been initiated but i think thats the beauty of it...you can do whatever you want, and really explore your spirituality..and see what workds and what doesnt moonsaber: *nod* I like the texture, the feel of my tools but I find I use them less and less as time goes by.. one of the problems with solitare eclectisism is that you are likely to avoid areas you are weak in and emphises areas you are strong in... cybrWitch: *nod* I have had to defend myself numerous times to coven members who have challenged my authenticity; some claiming that I have no right to call myself a "witch." good point serpente serpente *nod* Very good point serpente. so instead of balancing your self, you just amplify your preexisting imbalances thanks brm =) > Serpente: Nod. serpente: good consideration but I dont mean to discourage solitare work... that is where the "work" comes in, to work at one's own balance well, but solitary does not have to mean that you don't have input from other wiccans, just that you tend to practice alone.. otherwise it is just practice If you follow a standard set of rituals, adapting them to your particular form of tradition, this is not a problem. The sabbats and esbats taken as a whole emphasize all areas and rhythms of life.. ((((((((((((Gerike))))))))))) but if the work is to be transformative it is going to require ruthless self evaluation barb: yes, but many, if not most solitaries are ecelctic. yep i hate that part :( > Brm: What part? There aren't many traditions specifically for Solitaries Besides, I don't see why justification to mortal beings is necessary for one's spiritual growth. Initiation comes from within, not without. It cannot be conferred on a person by another person. Only the God and Goddess can do that, through the intent of the disciple.. Nod Dara* drey the brutal self evaluation sigh... Barbarian thats why I generally encourage people to not try to get excessively creative, and concentrate on things like yoga / martial arts / study etc > Brm: Nod. I think many solitaries must 'get' good at the self eval agreed Barbarian I was solitary for many years w/o any contact with other pagans, I wanted to be sure of what I believed in and hhow I wanted to practice and not be influenced by others. I have found this has been invaluable now that I am with a coven. Attention: * Dara-w has a controversial statement,.. well maybe so drumroll please! * cybrWitch listens serpente: I am generally not execessively creative. You may have misunderstood me when I said "write ritual." I meant the adaptation of existing ritual to a solitary basis, and making it meaningful to oneself in the ritual practice. One major problem,... Youth and Solitaries,....... Barbarian, I wasn't meaning to address your comment, just a general thought I never really thought much about the AD&D Traditions. ad&d? One of the problems is Ad&D :) Advanced Dungeons and DRagons. > Brm: Advanced Dungeons and Dragons oh well i don't game don't know this stuff In my experience,.. a young person can tend to get too carried away without any guidance,.. the energy is raw and wisdom (which comes from yrs on the life path) is not yet developed "But I'm a 10th degree Magick User..." * windwolf doesn't either brm.. * Dara-w doesn't game either,.. real life is challenging enough Neither do I, but my hubby does.... > I think most of the serious young practitioners are looking for guidance. dara i happen to agree, but that also comes with growing Dara: I agree. Younger novitiates need the guidance of older, more experienced practitioners. * MoonSaber games and was one of the reasons why he looked into wicca to begin with instead of learning something like Tai Chi or Yoga that takes years to learn and has real effects on mind and body, things like AD&D encourage an excessive reliance on fantasy and sitting on your ass talking about magick instead of doing it :) > Heck, I was 22 when I found the craft and I wanted help. :) that is the nature of youth solitare or not But if they can't find help, they have to study it on their own. Such as I did, for years... Oh yes, I've seen them too, and am happy to see them ask for guidance,.. > Serpente: It is good training for visualization though. Gaming that is. serp: yep That's fine....so long as they find the right books and not a D&D manual. serpente ohhhhh ok and i agree with you but i don't play so i *shrug* i am ignorant of whats involved serpente, unfortunately that is true, but Ive always been an active person, always looking into something to do, so I have taken taichi and tai-kwan do and kung-fu... Nothing wrong with visualisation, but what are you visualizing? How is your energy engaged? fang!!!!! Barb: we've all had to study alone at some point,... but have seen some recent examples of the over-exuberance of youth,.. mm :) cybr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > Honestly, do any of you know any young people seriously using a D&D book as a text for magical training? how many of us were (or are) young and unfocused. ? MM, Harf and Harfling. again, not refering to anyone in particular Drey: don't actually consider 22 to be 'youth' you've been in the 'real world' for a few yrs mm brigid!!! ;) Brigid: Are there many young Craft seekers who turn to AD&D for study? I've run into a few.... i did for about a week. Urk! Neat spells and stuff. > Dara-w: Oh yes, I meant that I was fairly old when I found the craft. DREY... YES I know of a LOT of that sort of thing happening. not D&D, but other silliness taken for real. Ye-e-es, I can see that. A lot of astral glamour built up around the Games. I was 17 and in need of a direction to take with my life, I was unhappy with religion in general. my experience with ad&ders has been that they tend not to belive in real magick Cyber: was untrained,.. not too unfocused at the age of 8 when I hexed a class mate and it blew up for me Not at 22 you weren't. I didn't find my way to fulltime Craft till I was 36. never played AD&D > But religion is about philosophy and D&D doesn't provide that. * Dara-w was untrained 'formally specifically, the books that center around the Illuminati trilogy. you can this imbalance at the festivals as some people make such a fuss about trying to dress up like a powerful magician :) When I was 17 years old, I took a course of study called "The Silva Mind Control Method." It was my first training..and probably is why I followed the path I am on now. you can see I mean * windwolf wonders if the SCA might fit into this conversation as well.. Dara, but my point is that we all go thru that stage of development that was supposed to be formally for many years cybr, not true, I have always belived in magic, but the true magic and AD&D magic are really unrelated. dara: you too, I became interested around that age for many wrong reasons Whats the basic debate here. Serp: :) they're easy to pick out??? SCA, as I've had it explained to me by friends who are members, are not real tolerant of Magick and Craft when they're playing. no debate dark, just a discussion on solitary practice DarkNexus: We're discussing Solitary practitionership..strenghts and weaknesses. thanks sort of sidetracked into a D&D tangent unfortunately No, the SCA is, if anything, anti-religion of any nature on the field, and keep it private off the field. I have been in the sca for 12 years. Cybr: yes, the problem stems from a solitary not having the resources that a coven has brigid: ahhh, I'm not real familar with their practices. yes brigid, the SCA people tend to concentrate more on the medieval society. Violet: had my Spirit Guide at 3 or 4, was 'spelling' from then on I think the closest they come to tolerance for "magick" is Herbwives.... mm LadyGrace The SCA was founded by 2 pagans and an agnostic. another things covens provide is a change to have all the interpersonal conflict that can be such a valuable teacher :) chance heheh serp hahaha serp hahahahahahahahaha lol and it is too, but sometimes you find the right mix :) mma Ladygrace! :) Serp: After I went thru the coven's 'degree' system I left because my path was dif from theirs mm LadyGrace being in a coven tho does not stop a youthful initiate from trying to use the power they can access to do harm at least all the coven I was ever in we went through a lot of that May I ask a question of the coven members here? i enjoy learning from my other coven mates especially the novices Dara: personally, I too have problems with the degree system. Same here, Serpente. sure know how to humble you wasn't the SCA founded by diana Paxson? it seems so "automatic" do this get initiated, do this, etc barbarin sure > Ok, how many people have a "degree" and how much does it mean to them? Primary founder was Marion Zimmer Bradley Cybr: no, it doesn't but the coven should be 'close' enough to lead a novice thru that lady: really??? I didn't know that, cool! Okay, what are the degrees in covens used for? I have a plain old first degree Faery Faith, Drey.... I'm definitely not saying that youths in a coven or solitary don't have anything to offer, they have a lot to offer No offense, but it seems like it's kind of an elitist thing.. But it's important to me because of the people who helped me get to it... In my tradition we dont really have 'degrees; we have a set of workings that must be done in a certain order... relating to the 4 elements and spirit Not because I have it. drey it does not mean a whole lot spiritually because you gain that degree whether or not you are in a coven but, I know women who claim to be 3rd degree that I would not let into my house, while others who are beginners I have entrusted with the keeping of my boundries. so you have to pass your Earth working before you can go to the next element etc right, it was founded by bradley and paxson... two of the best fantasy writers... the pagan community makes such an ordeal about degrees thru covens that it helps in political ways only i have found Lady: that has more to do with the individual than the 'degree system' it is a matter of personal feellings and, for lack of a better word "meshing" that is most necessary. lady: off topic, I was looking in a bookshop today, and couldn't remember her name--one of those momentary lapses :) political ways? How? brm: *nod* Brm: I agree totally I called MZB's house one night when I was first starting to study.... bbl She was at choir practice at one of the local churches... I have my own understanding of the 3 degrees, initiate, preist/preistess, and teacher/elder being the 3 THAT is a standard joke in her house, Brigid. Read some of her memoirs between the short stories and in her magazine. barbarian what i mean is for some reason the general pagan community feels that if you have a degree you have achieved some level, and i know children that are better whitches than some 3d degrees Dara: Just to clarify, what do you consider youth? primarily by age, or maturity, and what? at least that way I can map various ideas into a common language at least I can agree on the "choir practice" is fighter practice. That's what Lisa Waters said, anyway.... I mean, even in the tradition I follow, there are no degrees among the coven/kindred. But she and I had a nice chat on energy working... I myself am studying to be a Vitki, but that is not a degree; it isn't heirarchical. Violet: yes,... but to generalize here, a young aged person 'usually' hasn't much maturity,... it comes with yrs in life brmhilda: I see. So it really means more of a status standing in the community? Since I had a teacher who didn't know what to do with me at the time...IShe wasn't a heavy energy mover. well, the whole degree thing is just part of our enculturation. we seek to gain legitimacy by having letters behind our names or degrees. a preist/preistess is someone who has learned the workings of the system enough to be fully competent within it and has committed themselves to that role In my experience, Barb, the whole degree system is a way to prove your pedigree... of course that means according to me most people dont get out of 1st degree :) I've found that with some in the pagan community, without that 'degree' you're not taken very seriously/well Like the "Piled Higher and Deeper" Ph.D.? ;) (that was a joke!) Brigid: woof,..woof,... I'm a mongrel frm way back barb: *nod* exactly! *grin*